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I find it funny that people keep saying that there is too much violence and sex on tv...
last i checked there was a little device called a remote that changes the pictures in the magical box called television....
when it became public that the columbine kids played lots of violent videogames, people said "oh, well that explains it"....
explains what? do you honestly think those kids were little angels until they played 2 levels of Doom, then all of a sudden they thought, "you know, we should kill a bunch of people"?
they were violent people.... so of course they were drawn to violent games.... but to say that games, or music, or television, or whatever CAUSED them to be violent is idiocy.... to say anyone is violent BECAUSE of any of that is idiocy....
it sickens me that we refuse to point the finger at the actual causes in violent crimes... we have become all too ready to create a convinient scapegoat and just go on with our lives... because, you know, it COULDN'T be a problem of PARENTING! god no! its all the videogames and TV's fault.... it couldn't possibly be the fact that the parents ignored warning signs, ignored their kids, and/or simply failed to instil even the most basic of moral standards into their children.... no, no, no..... it's the videogames...
well... to all of you assanine twits that seem to think that music or tv can turn your "litle angel" into a murderous psyco, i want you to take a long hard look in the mirror and ask yourself if you really did all you could as a parent.... and if you have to ask, then the answer is no...
if videogames have more of an influence on your children than you do.... then you have failed as a parent.... -
Today in the UK there have been 2 violent incidents while people have been queing for the new Grand Theft Auto 4 One stabbing the other ended up with broken jaw. Even prostitutes want this game banned. Granted these games might not effect greatly the majority of people in such a huge way but there are those they definately do influence. People are desensitized and violence which used to be something a small minority would lower themselves to is becoming the norm and "to be expected" "its how people behave". People think so little of humanity they have given up trying.
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I don't blame the parents for Columbine, there was something very wrong with those kids. Perhaps the parents did do something wrong and screw them up, I don't know the full details. But I'm sure they were horrified when they learned of what happened and could have been very decent parents.
"if videogames have more of an influence on your children than you do.... then you have failed as a parent...."
LOL Agreed!
"Granted these games might not effect greatly the majority of people in such a huge way but there are those they definately do influence."
No, that's skewing the statistics around rampantly. The same but WORSE happened over Tickle Me Elmo. There are violent people out there. There are short tempered people out there. There are popular things out there, that are sometimes short in supply. Incidents will happen regardless of the product. -
"WORSE" lol you are kidding, I want proof. True there are short tempered people out there whether they played a dodgy game or not. I would ask why you think they might be bad tempered though?? Nature or nurture? either way games like these don't help them much. There is a reason games like this have an age limit yet people ignore them and then wonder why their children are acting differently.
And yes I agree "if videogames have more of an influence on your children than you do.... then you have failed as a parent.." the problem is that parents do fail.
Weydon I think we are definately going disagree about this as it rings with the same sound as the porn arguement and sexual abuse, which we have discussed many times previously. Influence from any source affects all people differently, its affects will be there no matter good or bad but the scale of influence depends on the person. So looking at something with negative output i.e. ganstas taking a prostitute giving her what for then shooting her brains out (please dont tell me you dont see this as negative...) will influence everyone negatively just very slightly in some and way too much in others. either way it is not a good outcome. Quite frankly they are also unnecessary and I fail to see why it is so appealing to the masses other than it helps people who lack the feeling of dominance in their own environment to feel more powerful. -
PROOF? You don't remember? It was like 10 years ago but it was a well known phenomenon happening all over. Most news sites don't keep stories up for over 10 years, but a simple google search will ring up people reminiscing as well as traces of the actual stories
http://wjz.com/topstories/Tickle.Me.Elmo.2.432844.html
http://www.cnn.com/EVENTS/1996/year.in.review/talk/elmo/elmo.html
http://www.forbes.com/2006/08/23/forex-trading-education-in_swh_0823investools_inl.html
"I would ask why you think they might be bad tempered though??"
The same as in all of human history? Only less, as of late.
http://www.pbs.org/kcts/videogamerevolution/impact/myths.html -
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lol thanks I will stay clear of the elmo thing.
Have you any recollection of this kind of thing happening say in the 1920's
Yes history has shown humanity is flawed. No we are not better than we were then we are more cautious.
Is it so difficult to see a larger picture? People are affected by everything around them. Parents peers tv games music books we are like sponges and the info we process affects us. The whole of society is blind to the poor influences we present ourselves. We have come to slowly accept worse and worse things as just fine. If you showed gta 4 to your grandparents what would they think?
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the blame game
Remember back in the 80s, when role-playing games were still a new thing? Some people wanted to ban them because of a few isolated incidents, one where this loser used Dungeons and Dragons to plot his parents murder so he could inherit their money, and another where some kid committed suicide because his character got killed in a game?
Geraldo Rivera did a special on it called "games that kill" in which he cited several instance where people who played RPGs wound up involved in satanic cults, committing murder, suicide, practicing voodoo, vampirism, witchcraft, etc. he made it look like everybody who played D&D would end up a devil- worshiping psychopath.
funny. I've been playing D&D since 1981, and i don't worship Satan. I never plotted a murder either. I've had several of my characters die in a game, but I never croaked myself because of it. i figured that was the risk i took by playing.
could it be that these people were screwed up in the head, or am i and those I play with the only ones who are immune to the D&D curse?
or could it be that Geraldo, and others like him, like to play the blame game? -
"less" is questionable and yes people play the blame game. After watching first hand the stress risen levels caused by repetitive aggressive games and reading the attitudes of people on youtube for example people are hardly better than they were just restricted by law and new technology which does a better job of finding you out possibly?
Im not suggesting vid games are the sole cause of violence, and it is amusing that the main defenders of these games are usually gamers lol I have been partial to a game or 2 myself though and still have some commonsense about the whole thing. But then if we look at this on a personal level maybe our lifestyle and personal opinion differ which is what drives a lot of debate on this site.
There are studies which prove these games to also be highly addictive and to anyone this can be damaging to lifestlye and health. You might argue that it has never affected you but this does not change how it affects others.
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"Im not suggesting vid games are the sole cause of violence, and it is amusing that the main defenders of these games are usually gamers"
how is that amusing?
who is the main advocate for smoking? smokers!
who is the main advocate for womens rights? women?
how is this amusing?
the group that plays they games will, of course want to keep playing... the people who are women, will most likely want womens rights... smokers want to keep smoking.... it's common sense not divine comedy...
and as for the addictive properties of videogames...
Addiction: The condition of being habitually or compulsively occupied with or or involved in something.
we are all addicted to food, air, water, hygene (i hope), cars, gasoline, polluting, wasting, doing the naughty, and computers....
being addicted means nothing... unless it harms you... the last time i checked, however, video games dont give you cancer, destroy your liver, or really anything bad to you, unlike a few other things that i can think of....
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App, did you read my last link? They provide all the actual statistics that go the opposite of what you're saying.
"Have you any recollection of this kind of thing happening say in the 1920's "
Violence? Always. If you're looking for specifics, the rise of the KKK, the rise of the Nazi party, the First Red Scare, Prohibition, the Tulsa Race Riot, the Rosewood Massacre, and more. But that's just the major ones. Like Tickle Me Elmo, 10 years ago in the Information Age, smaller bits of news tend to get overlooked in time.
"If you showed gta 4 to your grandparents what would they think?"
Your argument is my grandparents wouldn't like the game? Let's just keep going back in time and find the values of the people who might agree with us more. -
lol not quite what i meant. my point is that values are becoming slacker and slacker. Thank you for reminding me about large organized groups of people with extreme viewslol I was thinking more on an individual level. Im not denying people have always had a need to dominate to feel secure, today people have become so lacking in respect for others that it happens on an individual level so much more. I too could find links supporting my arguement but hardly wish to commence with a link battle..we could go on forever the web is filled with opinion just like ours.
What is so bad about looking back weydon.. we can hardly look forward without speculation. Is it pride which prevents people from wanting to admit someone else might have actually had a better idea of civility. Nazi groups KKK even fred phelps lol have all been around for a long time. Teenagers or even grown men and women calling each other biatch and wanting to be coke sniffin gun weilding bling bling ganstas are a pretty new thing to the majority. Yes there have always been gangsters no they have not always been glamourised and accepted by a large number of youth to the point where they actually live it.
Take bing drinking for example, british tv has lots of programs following the antics of blathered men and women collapsed in the street fighting and generally behaving in a way they would not dare entertain when sober. Now dont asume I think this is abnormal, I have unfortunately been there myself in the past, the scary thing is when you think about just how many people take part in this rediculous behaviour. Being drunk is nothing new thousands of people filling the city centres and drinking themselves into absolute stupors every weekend is a fairly new phenomena. People have lost sight of the foulness of this behaviour because very few remember or have a distorted view of selfrespect. Cities have resorted to installing video security all around the centre to hopefully prevent people from becoming worse than they are. The police attend every weekend as a dominant presence inorder that people are wary. Sounds like a waste of police time yet they have no choice because people would rather go out and drink themselves into being someone they are not than be civilised.
Speaking of being someone your not, what do you think happens when someone sits at a game for 5 hours even 8 hrs at a time and that game involves shooting women speaking to them as though they are worthless and robbing people of there belongings? It plants negative ideas in the brain which appear in that persons life in various forms. Not necessarily as violence on a grand scale but little things. The way they speak to people might change slightly then people start to dislike that person or worse peers encourage it and it becomes worse. they go through life thinking this is ok etc etc I could go on but something tells me it will be a waste of type.
I will say that I have nothing against games, I have enjoyed them lots myself yet games such as gta 4 are unnecessary. People need to get an imagination or take advantage of the decent games out there.
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Pardon?
One of my all-time favorite games is Saints Row (much like GTA but you are in the "hood" and you are a "gangster")...
in the game you can smoke pot and cigarettes, dring until you fall over, kill excessive amounts of people and it has ragdoll physics, so shooting the bodies of the dead is just as fun, if not more, than actually killing them and all the while making racist, sexist, homophobic remarks......
meanwhile, in the real world, i am bisexual and i dont hate gays, i respect women (more, if anything, than men) i am not racist in any way, i have never and will never kill any one, drink, or smoke... and i am steadfastly against killing, drinking, smoking, racism, sexism, and homophobia...
do you think that i go to school and act "gangsta" because i can do it in a game? no...
what really gets me about your arguement, though, applehead... is that though you admit that
"And yes I agree "if videogames have more of an influence on your children than you do.... then you have failed as a parent.." the problem is that parents do fail."
yet your primary issue seems to be the games, not the parents... parents, which are really the problem, since if you're that bad of a parent your kids will probly end up screwed up anyways....
i admit in that statement that games do have an influence, but it is your job as a parent to override that influence and teach your kids some damn morals... if your kid becomes christian and beats up a gay kid, then, yes, the church influenced you kid to do it... but it was your job to teach them that that is wrong... blaming other things is not going to help... (before i get 80 messages about the christian bit, i am not saying all christians beat up gay kids.... just like not all gamers are violent)
this blame-gaming scapegoat BS is like "no child left behind" for the morals of america... instead of adressing the actual problem we simply lower our standards...
we need to stop trying to take videogames off the shelves and start expecting parents to do their damn jobs and parent....
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"I too could find links supporting my arguement but hardly wish to commence with a link battle.."
I dunno, I think PBS is pretty unbias in their statistics. Plus their explanations seem pretty obvious to me. Yes, many violent kids play video games. But MANY kids play video games. It's essentially like saying Coca-Cola is what's causing violence among young people (at a 30-year low btw), because most violent offenders drink Coca-Cola. But A LOT of people do, and most are normal and well balanced.
"Teenagers or even grown men and women calling each other biatch and wanting to be coke sniffin gun weilding bling bling ganstas are a pretty new thing to the majority. Yes there have always been gangsters no they have not always been glamourised and accepted by a large number of youth to the point where they actually live it."
I don't want to LIVE it. I love those games, I think they're a lot of fun, and not because I'm itching for the chance to smoke crack and shoot people. As I'm sure many people can account for, I have a strong stance against hard drugs and guns. For the past 9 years, my little brother's favorite part of the game has been getting more and more police to chase him and see how long he can outrun them and fight them off. Eventually helicopters and Armed Forces are called in to get you, and it takes a lot of shooting and explosives to keep them from getting you first. This game must be training him to become a menace to society that hates the military, seeing them as expendable tools that you can kill to get what you want. Which is why he's now a Corporal in the USMC.
You don't want to emulate the game where you're a gang member anymore than you want to emulate the game where you're an Italian plumber that flushed himself into a magical kingdom.
"Take bing drinking for example, british tv has lots of programs following the antics of blathered men and women collapsed in the street fighting and generally behaving in a way they would not dare entertain when sober."
I get absolutely obliterated every weekend, and I don't become violent. I don't do it because I have no self-respect, I do it because I enjoy the way it feels--which effects no one but myself.
"Cities have resorted to installing video security all around"
Cities have the CAPABILITY to do this now. Security cameras are now cheaper and clearer than they were even 15 years ago.
"Speaking of being someone your not, what do you think happens when someone sits at a game for 5 hours even 8 hrs at a time and that game involves shooting women speaking to them as though they are worthless and robbing people of there belongings?"
Nothing. I've done it. Many times. The only negative thing about video games is that, like TV and book reading, it discourages physical activity--but that's up to each individual to decide if they want to have an exercise regimen. Playing hours and hours of video games, like spending hours and hours reading, does NOT make me become more like a gangsta, wizard, knight, assassin, or monkey inside of a ball that navigates through a tilted maze. -
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"You don't want to emulate the game where you're a gang member anymore than you want to emulate the game where you're an Italian plumber that flushed himself into a magical kingdom."
"Playing hours and hours of video games, like spending hours and hours reading, does NOT make me become more like a gangsta, wizard, knight, assassin, or monkey inside of a ball that navigates through a tilted maze."
*claps* thats awesome....
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waffle waffle waffle
Gosh the defensive reaction is shocking.
Never have I denied the responsibilty of the parents to teachthere children morals. In fact this arguement is my expression of a fight for what is becoming less and less a moral society. Why someone would enjoy playing a game that demoralises those they are close or even empathise with is baffling to me.
Yes and the sarcastic humour is much appreciated and understood. Mental state is a delicate thing, most people realise that they will never be a 2inch italian plumber. On the other hand some young lads desire to be the glamurised gansta.
Amusing is exactly that amusing. People who wish to preent and flip the smoking ban in pubs are usually those who smoke your right gamers are not the only ones..yet.. how many people have to live with the results of people smoking.
You know what Im bored, I have more important things to do..like parent my children who unfortunately at the age of 8 have been exposed to the likes of 300 and gta against my wishes but hey what can ya do.. oh yeah fight against the crap they are exposed to by teaching them morals and I intend to do exactly that. Unfortunately for people in my position because games, vids watever are given such media exposure and grand reputations kids want to play them and so starts a great war between child and parent or they simply play it at a friends house.
I'm very blessed to have a son who has a mind to consider and appreciate what is right and wrong..however some don't unfortunately.
Just as a last weary response.. I fail to see what is saintly about the game you described..I am absolutely thankful I am a Christian, Jesus is the most respectful, patient, loving
and considerate friend and this world would be lacking in hope without Him.
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applehead... i understand that you want to instill christian morals on your kids, i do... but the fact of the matter is that not everyone is christian, and not all christians are good parents... so we can either concentrate on the games, which ever-so minorly affect people, or we can concentrate on the shortfalling of a large amount of modern parents...
while the first option is admittantly easier to carry out, the effort that will go into depriving millions of people the joy that comes from playing a good videogame, just to appease a few parents that shelter their children from anything "obscene" (which more and more seems to translate to "real") is simply insane...
and while the problem with parents is much, much harder to address, it will solve much more and improve the lives of hundreds of thousands of neglected children....
so we can sacrifice the will of the many for the few to feel ever so slightly better, at least, until they find something else to bitch about...
or we can adress the actual problem, put some serious work into it, and improve the lives of lots and lots of people without depriving many people of all that much...
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Violent media is not actually incompatible with Christian values, as it does not actually promote or create violence. I didn't bother explaining this to Apple because we'd get into a pointless debate it--the same exact one already being had, but with "Jesus Christ our Lord and Savior, would want..." prefacing the identical debate. Just wanted to clear that up.
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" as it does not actually promote or create violence. "
This is very questionable and as yet I dont see any concrete conclusion. If you actually could imagine Jesus sitting down and playing gta you have a better sense of humour than I imagined lmao
"I didn't bother explaining this to Apple because we'd get into a pointless debate it--the same exact one already being had, but with "Jesus Christ our Lord and Savior, would want..." prefacing the identical debate. Just wanted to clear that up. "
LOL is that not the whole point of being Christian.. to live as Jesus. -
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"This is very questionable and as yet I dont see any concrete conclusion"
Well, aside from my own firsthand experience (including the dozens and dozens and DOZENS of people I know), PBS is a reliable, unbias source that has done studies showing no link. In fact, violence in youths is at a 30-year low. Perhaps it was 8-bit plumbers that caused the violence...
"If you actually could imagine Jesus sitting down and playing gta you have a better sense of humour than I imagined lmao "
lol who knows...
"LOL is that not the whole point of being Christian.. to live as Jesus."
haha yes, but I'm not living a life of violence and car theft. I'm living a life of avoiding violence and trying to spread messages of peace and hope. I'm just playing games and watching movies that do the opposite, which hurt nobody. -
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Weird
i thought i had replied to you ages ago, must have dreamt it... anyways... don't you just love it when a debate goes full circle and your right back at the beginning *pause* not! 
my arguement commences.... Well weyders it is highly commendable that you are able to play such demoralizing filth (for effect) and still not go out and shoot your neighbour after he pours his dinner out of the window above only to land splat on the ones you just cleaned! But some might not have such self control.... and the battle commences...
Tell ya what I noticed th other day though and that was the warning at the beginning of a game which I jut about managed to read a sentance of because it flashed by so quickly. It read... it you start to notice a change in behaviour.. Now I know this will more than likely be referring to the amount of time spent rather than the content but if you mix the two ?!?!?!
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Crazyhead
"but the fact of the matter is that not everyone is christian, and not all christians are good parents..."
Agreed unfortunately, in both cases. Morals, although I believe originate from the Word are not only held by Christians and so this does not only involve Christians. I might be wrong and dont have the motivation to reread all our posts but i am thinking it was not me that mentioned God first in this discussion.
Anyways... I agree with your next point
"so we can either concentrate on the games, which ever-so minorly affect people, or we can concentrate on the shortfalling of a large amount of modern parents"
although it is my understanding that the effects are not necessarily ever so minor I do recognise that if kids these days werent obessing over these games it would be anything else their parents didnt approve of. I can recognise that these games have an attractive quality. When I think back I too would probably have played them. The difference is that I now recognise through maturity or social responsibilty that behaviour like this need to be exposed for what is is and stamped out not made into the norm or "real". This is not just my Christian view speaking, serioously I felt this way before I became a Christian.
Dealing with parents is a difficult one because to tell people how they should rear their children is almost dictatory and so would not be acceptable in most cases unless extreme danger was imminent. However i do believe subtle changes in attitude, portrayal of correct and sensible civilised social behaviour and caring consistant support for communities would encourage recognition of the benefits of moral behaviour. Against the portrayal of such a community is of course games such as we are discussing. Of course I don't think for one minute anyone should be deprived of fun but why does fun include such things.. it was not the case in the past (yes Weydon..the past ) so why must it now?
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I just want to adda something to the discussion here...
I just borrowed GTA4 and I am quite surprised, as i'm sure you will be, apple...
the fact of the matter in that GTA4 actually takes a VERY anti-drug stance...
yes, the drugs are there, but the main character never does them, and it really shows how the drugs effect people without a bias either way... lemme tell you, I was always against drug-use... but after seeing this... it was like, WOAH! I didn't know it was THAT bad...
it also does not glamorise any of the negative things that you seem to think it does... those that kill, regret it... they say throughout coversations how they wish they could have a normal life rather than all this killing...
after playing it I can see why this game seems to scare people... it is realistic...
it doesn't sugar-coat itself to be easier to digest... it shows human beings to be the disgusting creatures that we tend to be without realising it...
reality seems to be becoming a dirty word... reality scares us... we don't like seeing ourselves in a negative light... we don't like seeing the flaws in ourselves, the ones we usually can't see because we are in such denile, personified through someone else because it scares us...
we tend to hide in the fantasy of religion instead or the sharp pain the reality brings...
and that's why games like this, that's don't censore reality scare us so very much, especially in religious communities...
apple... I don't expect that you will ever change your mind on the subject, but at least entertain the possibility that maybe people aren't so shallow that a few lines of game programming can change their programming as well... -
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Im glad you have the capacity for recognising a bad idea when you see it unfortunately this is not always the case. have you seen the film "Trainspotting"? It's filmed in Scotland and follows a group of friends who to varying degrees become heroin addicts. It freaked me out when I saw it especially as I had friends at the time who where addicts themselves. It put me off thats for sure but it glamourised it in a perverse way for a lot of people plus others seem to think they will be able to handle it or are above making the same mistakes. Anyway to end this I really do hope you are right. So many kids out there spend hours on these things so if there are no ill effects that would be an awesome thing would it not!!
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So should Trainspotting not be allowed? Should movies and books be added with video games in the "This will control my child's weak mind" bonfire?
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No they should not be allowed. Such portrayals of "real" life may open peoples eyes to the truth as is accepted yet this truth is not THE truth it is a distorted world with immoral behaviours that are lived with due to lack of realisation by the masses.
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So you're arguing FOR censorship and book burning?? Responsibility in keeping harsh material from those severely underage, and education of general responsibility and having your own mind are much safer solutions. Don't show kids drugs and violence and they will disappear. Just like before movies and video games, when nobody ever killed or had drug problems.
Who decides what media we BAN? The Bible is pretty violent too you know. -
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Compare two movies, one is your typical Scarface drug filled gun filled immoral but labeled classic movie (which if I'm honest was one of my faves before being saved)or second an educational movie depicting the real life of a heroine addict who's family are shattered etc.. you get the point.
Communities with low income often have a very narrow outlook on life because their accessability to a large variety of social input is limited. It is sometimes akin to living in a goldfish bowl. Now within this bowl everyone is in the same position no money, kids using drugs, parents using drugs! Guns are a normal way of life for some. this situation to them is truth. Yet 20km away there may be a home where the family are completely different drugs are understood to be damaging and guns dangerous an to them this is truth. If those trapped in the bowl only see what is in the bowl on tv in the movies in their lives around them they have no hope. they have no idea that they truth is that they can live a different life.
Yes the Bible is violent it contains humans Gods truth is not violence. Ha now Im expecting the truth of " Your god killed!" Yes he did do you know why he killed?
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well then...
in the bible it talks about killing sinners... why do you not have a problem with the bible?
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that's right apple... hide behind your religion...
since, after all... christianity has such a great track-record of peace and tolerance, what with the crusades and all... and the modern-day persecution of homosexuals, bisexuals, pansexuals, and transexuals...
and pornography, and videogames...
lets not forget though the catholic church is very accepting in some areas...
for instance, the accept their preists that touch 8 year olds and instead of firing the damn pedo's, they simply transfer them to a different church where they get a new selection of little ones so that they don't get bored...
not exactly the pattern of acceptance that I would hide behind in an argument... but to each their own, eh?
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It's not real. Before these games were out I ran around playing cops and robbers, or pirates, and "killed" all my friends and chopped legs and arms off. Then the bell rang and we all went back to class, without ever becoming monsters. The same is true here, in movies, and in books. It lets you experience a life that isn't yours, and laugh at some gruesome action you would never perform in a million years.
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Adding your reply:
Crazyhead
Apr 28 11:14 PM
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