I mean look at this thread
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Oops. Got your facts turned around17% Voted for by ShadowDion, JustBe, Tainted Innocence, bobrocks, DryIce808. (6 total)
Hate to be the bearer of bad news, friend, but Christianity owes its origins to the pagans, not the other way around. It was popularized by Emperor Constantine so that he could wrest power from two rivals vying for control of the Western Roman Empire. Constantine himself still continued worshipping the Roman pantheon long after Christianity became the official Roman religion. He assimilated the Christians in the usual Roman manner: by coopting their practices, myths, and holidays.
Have a look at the Bible some time. I won't go into great detail, but Jesus is merely Apollo/the Sun God. You might be interested in the following facts: 1. Jesus did not die in March, and 2. Jesus was not born in December. Christmas is cribbed lock, stock, and barrel from Yule, or the Winter solstice (December 21.) This goes for Christmas trees, mistletoe, advent, more than a few Chrismas carrols, the Christmas star, the Virgin Mary, the wise men, the giving of gifts, the Holy Trinity, and even the story of Jesus' birth itself. But for the change of date to the 25th, the editing of some facts and names, and a few specific technicalities, the Christians didn't change much of anything.
Easter (1st Sunday after Spring Equinox--aka Ostara, aka Eostar--on March 21) was stolen outright. What does the death of Christ have to do with eggs? Rabbits? Both are pagan symbols of fertility. The whole story of Jesus' death and subsequent rise to heaven is stolen, too. You do know that pagan religions were practiced for thousands of years before Christ (or Moses) ever drew breath, don't you?
The only defensible justification I can think of for the claim that pagans owe their religious practices to Christianity hinges on the fact that the Christians massacred the pagans into near extinction during the dark ages. Remember that "Thou shalt not suffer a witch to live" business? Over the past 2000 or so years, Christians have been just about the most murderous bunch on the planet. The conquest of the "New World" was justified in the name of Christ ("Catolico o muerte.") Ask the Aztecs how much they love the Christians. Oh, wait... they're all dead. The Christian hierarchy (Catholic, Orthodox, and Protestant) has fostered widespread ignorance and racial/sexual/ideological persecution for centuries, and has made us all afraid of our bodies. And thanks to the Christians, I have to defend my right not to be one. The Pope is really just an Emperor (he even has a miitary)--whom people do worship. The Christians may have imposed order, but that's just because they were the last ones standing when all the blood dried. I don't feel I owe them anything. In case you're curious, I was raised Christian, and my grandfather was a Pentacostal minister.
We do have gladatorial games, by the way. What do you call boxing? The Ultimate Fighting Championships? American Football? Ice Hockey? Nobody actually dies (usually), but there's plenty of blood. I enjoy them all, too, but the fact remains that organized sports grew out of war games.
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So what the fuss?11% Voted for by Simply Divine, cosmosis, acresofhope, Weydon.
Actually, I'm a Christian, and I don't agree with those who go parading around denouncing religions and various other things. If you ask me about something, I'll be the one to tell you point blank, but I'd never attack anyone for stating their beliefs, though I have found that people automatically expect me to quite scripture and rebuke demons from them when I tell them that I'm a Christian. That doesn't make sense to me.
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On the contrary5% Voted for by Kazrith, cosmosis.
a Christian would not have the same holidays or rituals that a Pagan does. (valentines, christmas ect ect) anyways. i do not denounce it entirely for i have no reason to because that would infringe on anothers rights. I use the Christian contradictions because it is a base for a good defence in some areas. a few things that the Christian belief supports i do not believe in (ie: slavery). the amount of stuff that christianity has done for society is alot but not all good. besides we could argue for months on weither or not christianity or the lack of it was the main mover in all of history's events.
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All are Different5% Voted for by A Dreamer Awake, Makessenseright.
Personally, I believe that every single person, excepting God, generalizes things. Duh, we all do it. Do you like chocolate? Generally, yes, but some kinds, I don't.
Every person is different in their beliefs, and we can not simply categorize people and believe that they all act the same way and still be telling ourselves the truth. A catholic girl who is 15 may believe something totally different than another catholic girl who is 15, however, the first girl may believe something similar to a girl who is a baptist.
Now, I am denominationless, and I am still a Christian.
People are imperfect; we do terrible things, all of us. No one said Christians were perfect. We're nowhere close to it. We have the extra taunt of being able to say, we're saved, so it doesn't matter what we do, or we can easily think that we're better than others. Honestly, it's very hard not to give into that temptation.
Spaniards killed off the Aztecs. Yeah. They were misguided and thought that the Aztecs were below them and wanted their gold.
Alot of stuff is messed up in the practices of holidays and and church things. Yeah. People take advantage of many things, in this case, the early, easily influential new Christians of the Church and still, many Christians today. In most everything, people take advantage of others.
Just because people have been mistaken who were Christians, does that mean that what is the core (forgotten sometimes in the heat of debate over Christmas time and gay marriage) of the Christian faith should be ignored?
Christ is that core, and if you don't believe in Him, then that is your decision. I will not look down on you, although I may think that you have made a poor decision.
Judging, a subject spoken of often in Christianity, is something we all do all to often. I am judging you as I write this and generalizing things as I write this, and for that I am sorry, but it is very hard to get past.
The main point I am making is that every person believes different things, we have all made mistakes, and we should look at each other and any person's beliefs like an individual and not a group.
The main basis of Christianity comes not from saying Hail Mary's (which I am personally opposed against) or calling people heathens and what not.
Being a Christian means that you you love God and Jesus and believe in Him with all your heart and all your soul, and that you have chosen to give your life to Him, and to become a new person free from sin. That is what Christianity is about, although some may not agree. If you believe in the Bible, you must know that this is written there and is probably one of the most well know verses in the entire Bible.
I think that it is not a good idea to label people (yes I do that too), and it is hard to not do things that hurt other people sometimes, but if you try, then it's better than doing nothing.
All I'm asking is that you recognize what the basis of Christian faith really is, and that all people, those who aren't Christian and especially those who are, do not categorize, stereotype, or look down on other people.
We will continue to do this, but by limiting it, and realizing that we are all different, perhaps a lot more people won't get terrible impressions of any person being closed-minded, or in a Christian's case, getting a bad impression of Christianity altogether. Obviously, the Spaniards left a terrible impression.
Before I close this, I would like to mention that I am a hypocrite, liar, I have disobeyed my father and mother, I have not honored the Sabbath, I have coveted from my neighbor, I have honored false gods (a tv for example), I have murdered people's spirits and am therefore a murderer, and in general, I have done terrible things. I am 15 years old, and nothing I have done wrong is enough to place me in our society as a bad person, yet I have done all of these things listed above, and I understand that I have done these all to whatever small or great extent. I am not perfect, nowhere near it. I am not always right. However, I have looked at Christianity, what the Bible says, and what is behind this matter. I have taken the time to view individuals, philosophy, and moral issues. I am 15 years old, and I have made my decision. If you think it is a poor one, then speak to me about it, and I will listen, and try not to harden my heart to what you wish to ask. I want to be open-minded, and I want to share what I know with someone, without feeling prejudice or generalization. I want to do the same in turn for someone else. I have committed many crimes. I am a hypocrite. I admit this to you freely. I am your everyday neighborhood teenager.
Please, understand that I am not perfect. Please understand that I contradict myself sometimes, being imprerfect. "Don't lie." I say, and then I do it. We all do. About Christianity being contradictory, again, a generalization. You must die to live. There is a major contradiction. You must die from your sin to truly live your life, and to truly live your life, you must be without sin. You must become a new person, reborn, to be considered saved. You do not become perfect, only you have Jesus there to make up for all of your misendeavors.
Please, if you don't like what I have told you, or if I have given you a bad impression in some way, please, please, don't let me put you down about believing in Jesus and God. I wouldn't want to do that to anyone. Other than that, I have one final thing to ask of you.
I would like to conclude with the statement that we are all different. Please, whoever you are, respect that and keep in mind that every person you meet, Christian, Muslim, Atheist, Jew, or any other belief or non belief, that ever person is different and is worthwhile and has something to contribute, something to say.
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Everyone Does It5% Voted for by HunteroftheDusk, Embers of Elm.
It's not like it's only done to Christians. How many Christians look down on every other religion. It's not like ohh poor christians getting hurt and stuff. They do it too. Personally I think it's in human nature. If it's not the same as what they believe it's wrong. Humans are like that. I'm not going to say it's wrong or right. I'm just saying people should learn to deal with it and stop caring what others think.
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Wow ... You make yourself look very close minded.5% Voted for by ShadowDion, Pleading Artichoke.
I would say YES christianity has done alot for society, but it's followers have also done equally negative things as well. Not to burst your bubble or anything, but christians came over here from England and stole the Native Americans land forced them to dress like them, belive like them ... they killed their woman and children all in the name of god ... and they burned supposed "witches" at the stake in the name of their god ... and just recently priest's in catholic churches around the world have been found to molest alter boys (possibly in the name of their god?)... so you see we can probably point out something negative about every denomination of christianty and as much as it offends you doesn't mean its not true. I understand your fustration I really do, but before you go and make another rude comment about another religion (like you did about the pegans and wiccans "and finally to any wiccan or pegan who reads this, you owe your asses to christianity too")why don't you take a step back and realize how hypocritical and close minded you are being, I mean really, isn't that the whole reason you wrote the above? Is because it bugged you that other people make rude comments or put down christianity (or "denounced"), but yet its okay for you to do the same to another? (How christ like are you? Not something I would imagine christ doing.) I myself dont think we owe the christians or any other religion shit ... I would like to think we owe it all to a higher power than that of some religion ... all religion is, is a guide for those who need some sort of faith. Religion is not god himself we do not owe shit to any religion. NOT TO PUT DOWN RELIGIOUS PEOPLE, DIFFERENT STROKES FOR DIFFERENT FOLKS. I myself am not religious its just not for me and I dont condem people for who they are, many of my family members and friends are religious and there's nothing wrong with that, so once again I really do understand your fustration ... people should not be rude, but in exchange neither should you.
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What is Good???5% Voted for by EarthToJim, petethemeat.
Kazrith has a rather naive view of Christianity. There have been many disingenuous people throughout history up to and including certain popes in the Dark Ages that used religious zealotry to acquire power, declare wars and justify and rationalize their own improper behavior. I may throw cans of baked beans at the police, but don't blame the bean farmers for supporting violent behavior.
Christianity is what it is. Chritianity IS the philosophy of living unselfishly for other people and not yourself. Christianity IS a never-ending quest to discover and understand TRUTH. Christianity IS a philosophy of of constantly doing good according to the principles of God as laid out in the Bible.
Christianity doesn't kill people, PEOPLE kill people.
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WHY CHRISTIANS FIGHT BACK5% Voted for by looking4realtruth, Makessenseright.
This is totally off the subject but it appears in many opinions above. The fact that Christians (true christians) should not try to convert others to their religion? What is that? The whole purpose of the Christian religion is to convert people and save them from hell. Remember that's why they're trying to convert people. Not because they hate your beliefs or opinions, but because they truly believe that you're going to hell and they want to save you. Christians can't stop caring what others believe because then they wouldn't be true christians. If they didnt care that you were going to hell, then they're not a christian at all. Also, according to the Bible, and christians, the "Jesus Loves You" phrase is true. But becasue we've all sinned, and God hasn't, we can't hang around in heaven with God.
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Crazyhead
January 18, 2006
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YES!!!
i brought this exact conversation up at one of my friends youth-groups and i got the DIRTIEST looks... one of the people the said "yes.... well.... umm...." and then just got really quiet.... good times. good times......March 7, 2006
DaVinci Code
LOL. I find this belief that Christianity got its orgins from pagans halarious. Someone who wrote this MUST have read the DaVinci Code and taken the nonfictional novel quite literally. After I conducted a complete disection of The Da Vinci Code, including an interview with Dan Brown, it was very very obvious that non of the novel is fact! only certain places, like Rome and the churches, and societies like the Opius Dei are acctually real. Now it IS true that christianity did indeed comprimose with pagans. They brought their new religion over to the pagans and didnt want to completely scare them with all new traditions, so they did move some of their special ocassions to the same dates that were allready set in place with Pagan worship in order to make the transistion easier.March 31, 2006
April 19, 2006
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Do us all a favor, and think a little before you just start spouting a bunch of garbage
Condescending, aren’t we? Well, since turnabout is fair play, please learn to spell, and then explain to me what a “nonfictional novel” is. If Brown’s book were a work of nonfiction, we would have to be idiots not to take it literally. I tried to type this on my metaphorical keyboard, but apparently it was really just an ice cube tray.I’m afraid I’m a little bit ignorant about The Da Vinci Code. I’m still working on the latest Harry Potter novel (from which I source all of my philosophical and religious beliefs), so I haven’t gotten around to it yet. Apparently, it is about a code of some sort, and concerns Leonardo Da Vinci or one of his relatives. Very recently, I’ve also learned that the plot involves churches, Rome, and some folks who failed Latin. Were the Opius Dei a group of Catholic smack addicts? Wikipedia tells me that there was a group that called itself “The Work of God” (“Opus Dei”), but I’ve never heard of them, either. I just googled the title of the book, and I see it involves the Knights Templar. I don’t see any mention of Emperor Constantine I, though ….You know, the person upon whose exploits my entire argument was predicated? It’s a good thing, too, because he died 800 years or so before the Templars existed. But whatever. So let me get this straight: You personally dissected the Da Vinci Code and interviewed Dan Brown? Impressive. If I am understanding your words correctly, then you are one of three things: 1. a legitimate journalist for a legitimate Christian periodical (Which?) 2. a papparazzi who bought a copy of the book and tore out all the pages (Tell me about Brad and Angelina!) 3. a dilettante who is exaggerating just slightly, and who really just watched that DVD I’ve seen on the rack at Blockbuster, or read one of the hundred or so books devoted to “debunking” what is purportedly a very well-written work of fiction. I strongly doubt #1 and #2, so I’m going to take a leap of faith and assume #3. I realize that the idea is tough for some, but it turns out that “fiction” (syn. untruth, fabrication, falsehood) does not need to be debunked. I’ll bet Brown laughs himself to sleep at night reading those books. State your qualifications more clearly before you claim to speak from authority. Based upon the merit of your “argument,” I’m guessing you don’t have much of that. The idea that Christian customs, etc., are cribbed from the Pagans is not in question. It is historical fact. You seem to have ignored pretty much everything I said in my argument, and so all I have to do here is address yours. No problem. “Now it IS true that christianity [sic] did indeed comprimose [sic] with pagans.” Actually …no. Constantine I and his vast armies of Christians, etc. defeated (i.e. killed) the allegedly even more impressive Pagan armies of Lucinius in the legendary civil war of 324AD. I call it legendary, because that particular war was fought on such a grand scale that its like was not seen again for 1,000 years. Perhaps by “comprimose” you refer to the part at the end of all the fighting, in which Lucinius surrendered conditionally, and Constantine had him executed anyway. In so doing, Constantine compromised both his own integrity and the defeated general’s ability to wake up in the morning. That was a compromise, yes. A model of diplomacy, that was. Reminds of the Golden Rule, does it not? “They brought their new religion over to the pagans[sic] and didnt [sic] want to completely scare them with all new traditions,” Now this part I do agree with. You want to be Emperor of the Roman Empire, but two other guys do, too, so you decide it would probably be best to kill them. When you sucker the downtrodden Christians into doing the job for you, and it works, of course you’re going to be in a good mood. Plus, your old enemies are now your friends. Why not throw a party and build a new capitol city? Damned right. In a truly amazing coincidence, Constantine’s new, self-titled Roman capitol landed right on top of Byzantium and all of its sacred Pagan relics. “Constantinople” does have a nice ring to it, I have to admit. I am sure that all conceivable measures were taken to ensure that the desecration and demolition of the Pagan statues, shrines, and so-forth was carried out in the most considerate, culturally sensitive way possible. Bulldozers did not exist in those days, but if they had, the beautiful, compassionate process of leveling the Temple of Aphrodite might have been even more gratifying for the Pagans to watch. A large number of them felt pretty neutral about it—no fear, no contempt, no nothing. True, it was largely due to their general state of deadness, but the fact remains. I can’t imagine the other Pagans had much of anything to say, either. It is a well-known fact that statments like, “You’ll never get away with this!” are a lot less compelling in the absence of a chorus of sword-toting fathers, brothers, and sons to chime in with, “Yeah!” ”...so they did move some of their special ocassions [sic] to the same dates that were allready [sic] set in place with Pagan worship in order to make the transistion [sic] easier.” And what an easy transition it was! 1,000 years of murderous persecution later, Christians were delivering those lucky Pagans (also little girls who acted funny) directly to the loving arms of Jesus. Which would be your favorite way of losing your religion: thumb screws, the iron maiden, the rack, and other forms of Medieval torture, followed by disembowelment, or something more simple, like burning at the stake? Go find a book with a Dewey Decimal number, and read up. This is how Christendom became prevalent. It was a political powerplay, pure and simple. Did you know that Constantine was also an antisemite? Did you know he had his oldest son executed out of jealousy? Accused him of fooling around with the wife. Though I do plan on it, I have never read “The Da Vinci Code,” much like you have never read my argument.
Makessenseright
March 31, 2006
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Right on... sorta
Mostly true, but sorta off the subject, the festivals came from other religions, the point though is that Jesus, the man who walked around about two thousand years ago, did not come from some pagan religion. I'm a Christian, but I don't care about: Christmas, Easter, Mary, the Pope, or any of the other crap that people have attached to Christianity. The only thing that should matter in a real way to a Christian is, as Paul says "Jesus Christ and Him crucified." That Jesus is God, that He died, and that He rose again. Religion is roundly bashed by the Bible, Jesus clashed with the religious leaders during His entire ministry. I'm a Christian, but I will not be called religious.March 31, 2006
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April 17, 2006
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Crazyhead
That must have been a MAJOR slap in the face for themApril 19, 2006
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May 1, 2006
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May 1, 2006
May 18, 2006
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What on Earth are you talking about?
Did it escape your notice that Apollo and Mithra are the same guy? Greek Helios = Roman Apollo = Mithra, and all three are older models of Jesus. I'm not talking about "Jesus, the dude." I'm talking about Jesus, as portrayed by the church. Even the stained glass windows look the same. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mithra I never called anything a conspiracy, either. Just politics, ambition, and a whole lot of ignorance. And like I said, I've not read the book. How could I prove anything about its internal logic or lack thereof? I googled to see which real people the book was written about. That is not tantamount to any sort of proof.May 18, 2006
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