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• TheDarknessVisible
  January 13, 2006
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  So... you are saying there is no truth?

  So.. does that mean it was ok to massacre the Jews in Nazi germany because the majority of Germans believed the truth was that Jews are rats? Would Jews suddenly turn into rats? does Nazi belief, create RAT DNA in a Jew? Does this not also mean, that in order for a nuclear bomb to work, the United states would have to engage in a massive PR campaign to convince the world that in fact.. nuclear bombs DO work? Or did the united states merely lie about the exitence of the nuclear bomb after the fact, and thus cause Japan to surrender on the basis of faith? If what you say is true, then how did Japan lose the war anyway? The emperor of Japan is a Sun God afterall. How does an animal or baby percieve reality? It can't communicate with people so it has no clue what we are thinking. Or do animals rely on ESP? And if the "Average" belief defines reality.. how come we never experience reality changing itself to conform with the average belief? Perhaps your own personal beliefs always correspond to the average.. but mine DONT and I know that average belief changes over time. And yet... reality hasn't. The average american doesn't know that Saddan Hussein used to be an ally. and yet.. a search through history books will reveal that he was. The average american still thinks there is a connection between Hussein and 911.. and yet there isn't. How do you reconcile your position, with the many examples that the majority belief has been false? Why do drug companies spend millions on researching drugs? Why not simply spend millions on advertising instead. by your argument it is perception which defines reality, so.. testing is kind of pointless.
• TheDarknessVisible
  January 13, 2006
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  delete this comment. posted due to a web browser malfunction
• TheDarknessVisible
  January 13, 2006
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  erkk..

  my web browser screwed up.. I posted my responce twice... I'll delete one. --- seems I can't delete it.
• Door on the Left
  January 14, 2006
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  contemptuous naivety...

  Perceptional reality is relative. The common view of reality is the generally accepted one, because it is generally acccepted. You can not interact with reality any more than your senses will allow. Thus, your perceptions define your reality. I normally wouldn't go in depth in refuting someone's many misapplied examples, but your unfounded cockiness makes me want to bring you down a peg so that you might learn to respectfully acknowledge other peoples' views. 1.) Q: "So.. does that mean it was ok to massacre the Jews in Nazi germany because the majority of Germans believed the truth was that Jews are rats?" A: "Yes and no. 'OK' is a relative term, for one. For them it seemed OK, but I wouldn't have done it, as it conflicts with my beliefs. The NAZI point of view was that there was something biologically wrong with the Jewish, that caused them to be inherently evil. The NAZIs thus thought they were just cleaning the Earth. If the NAZIs were to have won the war, and influenced public thought, most of us would have thought that they MUST have been that evil in order for the strongest force in the world to deem them unfit to live, and there would have been no survivors, and no one to hear their side of the story, and so we would have been living in a different world, with a different set of 'truthes' based upon common perception." 2.) Q: "Would Jews suddenly turn into rats?" A: "No, the NAZIs thought that the Jewish were ALREADY rats." 3.) Q: "does Nazi belief, create RAT DNA in a Jew?" A: "Dude, are you autistic? Do you not know what a figure of speech is? A rat is a derogatory term used to debase someone personality and / or integrity. I'm not going any farther on that one..." 4.) Q: "Does this not also mean, that in order for a nuclear bomb to work, the United states would have to engage in a massive PR campaign to convince the world that in fact.. nuclear bombs DO work?" A: "Finally! A good question. No. Allow me to explain... Semi-recent physics studies have noted an interesting correlation between actual and observed conditions. We used to think that actual conditions created observed situations, but it has been found that the effects of certain particles do not exist until the particle, itself is created, thus indicating that on small (and possibly LARGE???) enough scales, we create our reality. Because WE expected the bomb to work, it DID." 5.) Q: "Or did the united states merely lie about the exitence of the nuclear bomb after the fact, and thus cause Japan to surrender on the basis of faith?" A: "Such tactics have indeed worked in military situations in the past, but the physical proof to the contrary for this situation is there in Japan, if you'd like to go see the bodies burned in to the pavement." 6.) Q: "If what you say is true, then how did Japan lose the war anyway? The emperor of Japan is a Sun God afterall." A: "The Japanese thought he was a Sun God, but the rest of the world didn't, thus negating his ability to simply command us to stop finding. I mean, if you believe a person has absolute control over you, you've already given them absolute control." 7.) Q: "How does an animal or baby percieve reality? It can’t communicate with people so it has no clue what we are thinking. Or do animals rely on ESP?" A: "Each being's perceptional reality is different, dependant upon circumstance, genetic memory being one such factor. Research indicates that we retain the memories of our ancestors, if only in our subconscious for the time being. There have been many reported incidences, but a famous one is one in which a gorilla born and raised in captivity paints pictures of jungles that only it's ancestors could have known. We are extensions of our parents' views, in this sense, but are able to adapt our views to our current circumstance, as all beings SHOULD continue doing throughout their lives. Animals sense intentions of a person's actions based upon the person's body language, so it is likely that animals do have some sort of cognitive function, even if only apparently subconscious. Babies perceive the world based upon it's parents previous perceptions of the world, as indicated in the above regarding genetic memory. Animals bark and growl and purr and rattle to communicate with us. Babies laugh and cry. I've heard a theory that animals communicate through ESP, but my own view is that they only communicate through ESP if you consider body-language perception extra-sensory, since it's psychological." 8.) Q: "And if the “Average” belief defines reality.. how come we never experience reality changing itself to conform with the average belief?" A: "Because our beliefs don't change fast enough. When great things happen to me over the course of the afternoon after a bad morning, though, I begin to perceive the day as being a good one, so that's my reality altering itself based upon my perceptions. Additionally, if I tell my friends I'm having a good day, their reality is that I'm having a good, so I'm influencing their reality. This isn't quantum physics, here, buddy." 9.) "Perhaps your own personal beliefs always correspond to the average.. but mine DONT and I know that average belief changes over time. And yet… reality hasn’t. The average american doesn’t know that Saddan Hussein used to be an ally. and yet.. a search through history books will reveal that he was. The average american still thinks there is a connection between Hussein and 911.. and yet there isn’t. How do you reconcile your position, with the many examples that the majority belief has been false?" A: "The reality of, relatively, not too long ago, was that the world was flat. That was the world that most people interacted with, as that was their reality. They didn't sail too far, because they thought they'd fall off the edge. This didn't mean that they would, but that they THOUGHT they would, and they were interacting with their perceptional reality; and anyone who thought otherwise, for the most part, kept their mouth shut, because they were interacting with a world where those that thought the world was flat were sane, and those that contradicted such a view were deemed insane. For them, that situation was their reality. The point is that the common view of reality is the reality we must interact with. Now, how, oh, my naively contemptuous youngster, have I the need to reconcile my position? Your many examples have proven you to be only confrontative and juvenile, with little or no background in psychology. You have not offered one decent arguement, and only one decent question, so far..." 10.) Q: "Why do drug companies spend millions on researching drugs?" A: "Are you confused on just what the difference are between the DEFINITION of truth, and ACTUAL truth? Drug companies research drugs to see if they physically work!" BONUS: "By your argument it is perception which defines reality, so.. testing is kind of pointless." "No, not at all. You've just tested your own ability to perceive, and failed miserably, by missing the point completely, and proving yourself immature to all who read this, by being rude without the proper clarification you personally required. Now, it is your own projection of self-perception, the projection of your cockiness to hide your insecurities that you have conveyed to me as truth, and I have accepted and acknowledged, just as everyone else who reads this shall, and 'Tah-Dah!', you've just changed the average reality through your own perceptions. Neat, huh?"
• Door on the Left
  January 16, 2006
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  hah!

  Well said.
• penhaligon
  April 20, 2006
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  good one

  i agree to all of it firstwordspoken

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• Door on the Left
  January 14, 2006
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  Thanks.

  It bugs me when people criticize the views of others, rudely, and nonconstructively, without fully understanding the concept.
• a woman to love
  January 14, 2006
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  TRUE.
• a woman to love
  January 14, 2006
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  PEOPLE JUST DON'T THINK.
• TheDarknessVisible
  January 14, 2006
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  How do you know ?

  How do you know my truth varies from yours? If you lay down in a bathtub, and I throw a running hairdryer in it, does your truth say this is a good thing? You are confusing limitations of perception with ultimate reality. There is no KNOWLEDGE beyond what can be percieved directly or indirectly.. but that does not mean there is no TRUTH. Truth does not require your consent or notification. I'll use my example of the Atom bomb on hiroshima. How many people on earth believed in the Atom bomb prior to Hiroshima? a minute minority. And yet the bomb killed 100,000 people directly and about 1 million indirectly. Why did the TRUTH care about their opinion? I'll tell you the "ideal" truth, since you asked. It is that set of facts and rules about reality which are utterly consistant and not not contradict. The problem of CONVINCING people has nothing to do with truth. You have attached an arbitrary and pointless qualification to "truth". Specifically you've said that if a person doesn't agree, then it isn't true. People are often WRONG. The truth can never be. Just because you find people in your life are so pigheaded that they refuse to believe the truth no matter what argument you make, you shouldn't give up. What you don't know CAN HURT YOU.
• Door on the Left
  January 14, 2006
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  (sighs)

  Yes, there is a difference between perceived and actual reality, but that's what I've been saying all along. Did you even read my response? You misinterpreted my statements. The manipulation of perceptions I was refering to was psychological, to sway people to do and see what you want, up UNTIL you hit them over the head with a frying pan. Don't bother responding again until you read my previous rebuttal, and acknowledge that there was an error in the way you perceived MY statements.
• a woman to love
  January 14, 2006
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  Re: To Davidz

  In response Davidz comments. Why do you have to use such over the top illustrations to prove your point? What happend in Hirushima has nothing to do with truth. It was a awful reality that is what it was. I think you are the one that is confused here, and in addition to that you posed the question how do i know if my truth is different from yours ? Well the answer to that is easy ,do you know me or what my ideas are? The answer to that is no. When i spoke of convincing people this is a good example right here. Your perception to the question is quite inadequate, you see only what you choose to see, hence your response to my comments.

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• TheDarknessVisible
  February 3, 2006
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  what you believe

  "People may believe whatever they wish, therefore free will." "Society's law is not based on what you or I believe to be the truth about the world. The law of any society is made to keep peace so that all free people may live relatively peacefully, without fear for their lives, limbs, and livelihoods without some form of retribution." By your own position the law limits what way you may freely exercise your 'will'. So, by this argument if certain beliefs are a threat to the lives, limbs livelihoods of others then society is within its rights to criminalize those beliefs themselves. " If you think that you should kill people who don't believe what you believe, then you will be in jail. " "incarcerate" is an alternative to killing also mentioned in this topic. you are advocating that certain people should be in jail for believing that certain other people should be in jail for what those other people believe. You seem to suggest that your own position is immoral and should land you in jail. "Faith has meaning." 1) if it does, then certainly people should be held responsible for their faith. Or is it your position that people should only be punished for meaningless things? 2) Does truth has no meaning? " Every person is meaningful and so are their contributions." But not truth?
• A Dreamer Awake
  February 3, 2006
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  Davidz

  You are twisting my words davidz for your own meanings. I will start from the beginning of your write. About free will being partially taken away, did you fail to see "In a society, free will is limited to a certain extent"? I understand that we don't have complete free will. If we did, we could make things poof out of nowhere and we could make two plus two equal five. I have written the laws that are in society. I understand that they all limit our free will, but in trying to keep a peaceful enough community that we hopefully don't start going on massive killing sprees against one another. Beliefs aren't threats that I speak of. I speak of acting on beliefs that damage people in some serious way. Everyone is entitled to their beliefs, just some that involve things like murder or theft are not actable without punishment. The example I gave was vague and easily misinterpretable. I should have said acted on, not just believed. Again, may I emphasize that you can believe whatever you want, but if you want to live in any society, you have to follow their rules. Yes, faith has meaning. To myself at least. I will explain my logic behind why truth and faith have meaning. I believe that every person makes a contribution to this world, no matter how little. No two people are exactly alike, and there are few humans compared to all of everything in the universe. This makes us rare in my mind. A rare set of collectibles who are each incredibly valuable, because there is only one in the entire universe. Crazy, huh? Well, let it get crazier. I continue to believe that because of this, every action we make is valuable. Every word we speak should be taken as a treasure and something special. Now, I value truth. Truth is telling someone what is, what you believe, know, remember, care about, etc... Well, lies are another thing. Lies have value, but they are terrible things. I would probably label them as one of the worst things that mankind creates. Decieving one another will only lead to anger and unfair situations in which we will draw closer to annihalating ourselves. With that said, I value faith, because it is another human contribution, and because a belief in anything means that thought is present, which I also value. Faith in anything, trust is extrememly important, and quite valuable because it can be broken easily by any one lie. In a society, if the laws limit your ability to tell the truth, do true and right things, or limits the knowledge of the truth and instills lies, then that society is a corrupt society, and as we know, all societies are corrupt in some manner. The truth is important. Do not misinterpret my words. I value truth, faith, life, and free will.

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• TheDarknessVisible
  May 26, 2006
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  Reality is more than what we see

  "But if you believe something to be real, don't let what others say get to you. Instead go foward and try to prove that you are right. But don't be dissapointed if you find yourself wrong." I would vote for that opinion but it is off topic, and I already voted for myself :) although I'll opine that it is perfectly fair to be disspointed that one was mistaken. Being wrong is an undesirable state. This is why we should always strive for truth. If your dissapointment gets the better of you and prevents you from moving on.. then thats a different story altogether. I completely support the right of anyone to believe anything they are willing to prove and willing to accept the disproof of.

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