There is little I've ever heard of or seen that so goes against the natura primo order of humanity than homosexuality. What are the logical arguments against it? What are the logical arguments for it? Emphasis on logical here.
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A Natural Explanation12% Voted for by kage069, cosmosis, Spooky World Wolf, piazza cavour, aria94. (6 total)
A recent scientific study showed that gay men and women react to different pheromones than straight ones. This seems to show they're just born with it, and its a natural thing for them. And who knows, maybe it's nature's way of tryin to keep humans from breeding. There's too many of us right now to begin with.
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love is natural10% Voted for by pollywolly, cosmosis, mprinz, blackangel--, aria94.
if what is being said here is that 2 people being in love with each other is unnatural well then i guess yes homosexuality is unnatural like everyone else out there who loves somebody!!!
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Adding your comment: -
Okay, I do not believe homosexuality has anything to do with love as I've stated and explained in several arguments above. But my question to you is, what if two people of the same sex 'hook up' for the night? If it is just a one night, slam-bam-thank you man night and no love is involved, is it still natural and okay?
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one cannot be what you have said a "homophiliac" (which is a person who can love someone of the same sex in a romantic way) unless they are indeed homosexual. you can't love someone of the same sex romantically if you are not homosexual. sure, if you're heterosexual you can love someone of the same sex but it won't be a romantic love, it would be a platonic love. so "homophilia" and "homosexuality" go hand in hand. also, if two gay guys hook up and have a one night stand, it isn't any better or worse if 2 heterosexuals did the same thing. it is just as natural/unnatural as a heterosexual being that promiscuous. they are the same concept.
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it is NATURAL!10% Voted for by blackangel--, cosmosis, Kazrith, piazza cavour, Isabeau 48234.
i don't think homosexuality is something that goes against human nature! on the contrary it is totally natural... why do we try so hard to explain homosexuality and never try to explain heterosexuality, ever though about that! The story of Adam and Eve is just a LEGEND and shouldn't be take so litterlaly, maybe there was a story about two homosexual people but it wasn't allowed to be published cuz the subject is a taboo. As a matter of fact, homosexuality has always existed since the beginning of time and for that, it shouldn't be such a taboo, and it shoudn't be described as something unnatural or sinfull or whatever... I'm not defending this case cuz of my sexuality, i have my own beliefs and i think that, just like we shouldn't make racial comments or feminist comments, we shouldn't make comments against homosexuality, simply because...it is NATURAL
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Adding your comment: -
Okay, how well have you thought this out? Did you really just bring heterosexuality into question and place it on an equal plane as homosexuality? Hehehe, heterosexuality is not just about love and sex, it is about procreation. Homosexuality is about (at best) two out of three of those things. If homosexuality was as prevolent as you seem to think at the beginning of our species, we would have a massive population decline. Let me tell you, nothing will kill a species faster than a desire not to procreate. Also, homosexuality has always had an aura of being looked on as unnatural. Ever wonder why that is? I mean, this is not a century of discrimination here and a decade there, this is a constant thing. Very similar to how we've always agreed that a man should not have any woman he likes, or that rape is wrong, or doing animals, or stealing, etc, etc. Yep, I don't think you proved your point here, but maybe I just need you to clarify it for me if you would.
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OR maybe the low population of humans that are actually homosexual is so small that it really doesnt effect population that much. aura of being looked on as unnatural? really? what? didnt you pay attention in history class? remember Ancient Greece/Rome/Native Americans/Africans/(and to group a huge people together)Asians? each and every one thought that homosexuality was normal. the only reason people dont like it is because someone decided that being different was wrong.
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Some science10% Voted for by DryIce808, cosmosis, piazza cavour, aria94, Isabeau 48234.
I'm going to try to add a little science into the debate to help explain some things. First of all, sexual behaviour is determined while still under fetal development. How it works is this:
Testosterone is converted to Estrogen in the brain by an enzyme called aromatase. This estrogen in the brain during fetal development causes male sexual behaviour. Estrogen cannot freely enter the brain, because of a specific protein called, alpha-fetoproteins. Therefore, only testosterone can enter the brain, not estrogen.
So, males produce a significantly larger amount of testosterone than do females. Therefore, females do not have very much conversion of testosterone to estrogen in the brain. Also, since the alpha-fetoproteins bind the rest of their estrogen, females do not get much estrogen in their brain at all. Thus, females develop female sexual behavior. Males have a lot of testosterone, and therefore convert a lot of testosterone to estrogen in their brain.Now, here is where I talk about where things can go wrong. If a male has defect in his aromatase enzymes in his brains, he may not get enough estrogen in his brain. Similarly, if the male does not produce enough testosterone during this fetal period, he will have the same problem. This problem is the development of female sexual behavior. Many men who have this problem are physiologically just like any other male, but, have female sexual behavior. They are attracted to males and act, often, like females in their manarisms and their speech.
The same thing can happen to females. If a female has a defect in her alpha-fetoproteins or produce more testosterone than normal during this fetal period, they will develop male sexual behaviour.
I hope this clears things up for all of you out there. Especially you ignorant raging homophobes. Good day.
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just a question
im pro-gay and im just curious. so, in men, straight sexuality is caused by having testosterone enter the brain and being converted to estrogen? i thought that men had predominantly testosterone inside them and almost no estrogen.and i thought women had predominantly estrogen and little testosterone. so wouldn't excess testosterone cause attraction to women and excess estrogen cause attraction to men? im curious...i've never been good at science. -
Its more complicated than that. Both sexes produce both hormones. Its when it enters the brain at a fetal stage in development when sexual behaviour develops. So, males produce a lot more testosterone than females. Yet, the brain only responds to estrogen. Testosterone is converted to estrogen in the brain by the enzyme aromatase. Estrogen cannot enter the brain due to alpha-fetoproteins. It is the lack of testosterone and the functionality of alpha-fetoproteins that causes females to be attracted to men. It is the excess of testosterone and the functionality of aromatase in the brain that leads to males being attracted to females. Remember, this all happens during development in the womb. After that point it doesn't matter.
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Actually, Cosmosis
estrogen is what causes the hair in your armpits and around you genitals to grow. interesting little factoid i thought i should mention. -
thats not entirely true. There are several hormones that cause hair to grow, including androgens (male sex hormones). In fact, females with a lot of hair is due mostly to overconversion of estrogen to androgen in their follicles and overproduction of cortical sex hormones in their adrenal cortex.
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About your comment, Drycle808. You ended with " hope this clears things up for all of you out there. Especially you ignorant raging homophobes. Good day." Not everyone who is says homosexuality is not natural is homophobic. But to get to your scientific evidence, is it posible for this chenical imbalence to be reversed? I ask this because there have been homosexual individuals who no longer are so. How does this happen?
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Its not a chemical balance its a genetic/congenital defect in the coding for an enzyme or release of testosterone. Its impossible to change ones genetic code, so no, defect will always be there. Further along the line, as genetic engineering develops, we may be able to silence these genes or facilitate the individual with the correct gene before they reach the critical stage in the womb. That is the only way to correct something like that. None of these methods are available right now. Therefore, tolerance needs to be implimented instead. We all have different genetic codes.
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usually people who have become "Ex-gay" were not totally gay in the first place. most are just bisexuals
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To the Christians who are ok with homosexuality10% Voted for by Jesusquest, Emotions, looking4realtruth, keyman7, TeChNoWC.
If your a Christian, and accept the idea of homosexuality like some people I know look into scripture:
For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature: - Romans 1:26
1Corithians 6:9-10: "Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind, Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God."
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wow....
how many times do i have to go around this site and explain romans to people....this has to be like the 8th time. oh well, might as well do it again. you CAN'T take a passage out of context and expect it to make sense. romans, if you read all of it and not pick and choose sections of it you would realize that this passage is talking about people who worshipped idols instead of god even though they knew who god was. they thought they were wise but became fools. so as a result, god gave them over to LUST. LUST is always condemned in the bible, whether it is gay or straight. LUST is always wrong with the bible. these people had sex with anyone and it can be interpreted that it is talking about temple prostitution sex since temple prostitution sex was common with pagans and the main theme of this passage is IDOLATRY, NOT HOMOSEXUALITY. if you continue reading romans past the excerpt that you gave, you would realize that it said that these same people were murderers, thieves, drunkards, malevolent, inventors of evil, disobedient to their parents, etc. since most gay people don't have these qualities you can't say romans is talking about gay people. if romans truely was talking about gay people then every gay person out there would have to be a murderer or a thief or something else that is bad. but since most gay people do not have these qualities, romans is not talking about gay people, not at all. and on corinthinas "effeminate" and "abusers of themselves with mankind" doesn't necessarily mean homosexuals. not every gay guy is effeminate so right off the bat the term "effeminate doesn't necessarily talk about gays. secondly, abusers of themselves with mankind could very well mean prostitutes. don't prostitutes abuse themselves with mankind? they do. also, this is only one translation of that verse. look how others have translated it and used different words. 1Corithians 6:9-10: "Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, NOR PERVERTS, Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God."-phillips version 1Corithians 6:9-10: "Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, NOR SISSIES, NOR CHILD MOLESTORS, Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God."-jerusalem bible 1Corithians 6:9-10: "Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, NOR THOSE GUILTY OF UNNATURAL CRIME, Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God."-Wesleys version 1Corithians 6:9-10: "Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, NOR SEXUAL PERVERTS, Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God."-revised standard version 1Corithians 6:9-10: "Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, NOR HOMOSEXUAL PERVERTS, NOR SODOMITES Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God."-new american catholic version (note:-on this version it says "homosexual perverts", this means homosexuals who are perverted, but not homosexuals who aren't perverted. this doesn't include all gay people, it doesn't even include all gay people who have sex. also, notice how it lists "sodomites" as different from homosexuals. sodomites aren't homosexuals, because sodom was not destroyed for homosexuality. look at this verse from the bible for PROOF that homosexuality was NOT the reason for the destruction of sodom. "Now this was the sin of your sister Sodom: She and her daughters were arrogant, overfed and unconcerned: they did not help the poor and needy. They were haughty and did detestable things before me." Ezekiel 16:49-50. see homosexuality wasn't even mentioned as sodoms sins.) so to get back on topic with corinthians, notice how each version said something different and most of them said nothing about homosexuality at all and the one version that did mention homosexuality mentioned it in reference to those who are perverted but said NOTHING about homosexuals who aren't perverted. and since i have rambled on long enough, let me just clarify leviticus for you as well, "thou shalt not lie with mankind as with womankind, it is abomination" was listed in the torah, with all the other hundreds of PURITY laws that the hebrews had to follow ALONG WITH not eating pork or shellfish, not mixing fabrics, not working on the sabbath, and women having to sacrifice 2 birds after each menstrual cycle. it is demanded in the Torah with EQUAL inportance with all the others and these laws use the word "abomination" to describe them as well. that is because abomination in the original hebrew didn't mean something that was abominable but something that went against JEWISH worship practices. CHRISTIANS don't have to follow these laws that were SPECIFICALLY MEANT, for THE HEBREWS and THE HEBREWS ALONE. JESUS EVEN SAID THAT "THE LAW IS THE WAY OF MAN AND NOT OF GOD". HE EVEN SAID THAT THE ONLY TWO LAWS ARE "TO LOVE THY NEIGHBOR AS THYSELF" AND "TO LOVE GOD WITH ALL YOUR HEART, MIND, AND STRENGTH". also, jesus never condemned gays, out of all the things he condemned, gay people weren't one of those things. he even lived during a time period and in an area where it was socially acceptable to be gay and he STILL never condemned gays. don't you find it odd that the man who claimed to be god never condemned something which you think is a sin? think about that. being gay is not a sin. -
You have not read the Bible as much as you would like to think, apparently. Jesus said that loving God with all that is within oneself and loving thy neighbor as thyself is the first and second greatest laws. He certainly did not say that they were the only laws. And I've also got a question for you. You said in your argument, "don’t you find it odd that the man who claimed to be god never condemned something which you think is a sin? think about that. being gay is not a sin." If you are trying to justify homosexuality by means of the silence (as far as we know) of Jesus in regards of it, then how about things like incest and bestiality. To my knowledge, Jesus and perhaps even the apostles never mentioned those variances as sins. By your argument, we must accept that those things are okay and within morals. Also, you mentioned the Corinthians translation of homosexual as having many possible meanings in reference to things totally unrelated to homosexual activity. The word used is 'arsenokoitai'. But do you know where this word came from? It is a connection of two words; 'arsenos' and 'koiten'. Those two words are found in the Old Testament in both of the Leviticus (Septuagint) mentionings of homosexuality (Lev. 18:22 and 20:13). From this, we can very reasonably gather that the term used in the Corinthians verse means nothing short of a homosexual. And if it means a homosexual, then we have more than three verses all saying that homosexuality is illegitimate in the sight of God and thus a sin.
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arsenokoitai was not mentioned in the original hebrew text. that leviticus statement in hebrew was written: "V’et zachar lo tishkav mishk’vey eeshah toeyvah hee." notice how "arsenokoitai" was not mentioned at all. that word, no one knows what it means. that is why there are so many different translations of the bible. not even modern fluent speakers of greek know what it means. you then said: "then we have more than three verses all saying that homosexuality is illegitimate in the sight of God and thus a sin." are you implying that levitcus actually applies to christians? you should read all of leviticus before saying that. leviticus bans many things including: tatoos-19:28 crossbreeding livestock-19:19 eating pork-11:7 eating shelfish-11:9-10 working on the sabbath-23:3 and many others. if you are going to inforce that levitical law then you have to inforce them all. that levitical prohibition was an idolatric prohibition. i know this for several reasons. 1)if you put it back in context with the verse it went with, you can see it is idolatric-"And thou shalt not let any of thy seed pass through [the fire] to Molech, neither shalt thou profane the name of thy God: I [am] the LORD. Thou shalt not lie with mankind, as with womankind: it [is] abomination."-lev 18:21-22 2)the word that was translated into "abomination" was "toevah" in hebrew. that word was only used for idolatric prohibitions such as not eating shellfish. it was never used to describe morally wrong things like murder or theft. so by that, we can see that homosexual sex was banned for idolatric reasons. and jesus stated that the old hebrew law no longer applied to christians. i already showed you the verse up there showing how sodom wasn't destroyed for homosexuality and i already explained romans up there as well. I can use an argument of silence from the gospels because so many homophobes use an argument of silence from genesis. You know, how they always say “Adam and eve weren’t gay, so being gay is obviously wrong” using that logic you could say being japanese is wrong because adam and eve were arabic or something like that. If homophobes can use an argument of silence from genesis, i can use an argument of silence from the gospels. so leviticus, sodom, romans, corinthians, and jesus don't condemn gays (well, leviticus does, but it doesn't count). being gay is not a sin.
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YOU'RE taking it out of context!
(COPY OF A RESPONSE TO ANOTHER DEBATE )>>>27 Likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust for one another, men with men committing what is shameful, and receiving in themselves the penalty of their error which is due.<<< And you’re right. The Bible never condemns gays. It only condemns men who leave the natural use of the woman. So it’s all good. (that was sarcasm if you didn’t catch on) Also, lust cannot be “committed”. You don’t commit lust; lust is a sexual desire. It's a state of being. You can only COMMIT a sin. And in this case, men with men COMMITTING what is shameful. Gay sex. Whether people choose their sexuality is still up in the air, you can’t base decisions and other logical arguments on something that has not yet been proven. Also, cosmosis, v25 & v26: Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the creator, who is blessed forever. Amen. (26) For this cause God gave them up unto VILE AFFECTIONS:.... the verses regarding homosexuality follow. While this chapter does discuss idolatry, here Paul is discussing what those "vile affections" are and in no way in v27 is he discussing anything close to worshipping other gods. And as for the argument that all gays don't have all these qualities and therefore he can't be talking about gays: In verse 28 (And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate (highly immoral) mind, to do those things which are not convenient; list of bad qualities follow) The "they" he is talking about in verse 28 is the same "them" that he's talking about in verse 26, NOT gays. -
this is a copy from another respone of mine
the bible thinks that sin is unnatural and that it is brought upon humans by satan. therefore, according to the bible, lust is unnatural because lust is considered a sin. it is possible to commit ACTS OF LUST. for example if someone is promiscuous and sleeps with about 10 people in a week wouldn’t you call that lustful? if a person spends 4 hours a day watching porn don’t you think that is lustful? lust can be expressed through actions. so in a sense, yes, you can commit lust. romans does mention the worship of other gods, right from the beginning. “For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities-his eternal power and divine nature-have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that men are without excuse. For although they knew God, they neither glorified him as God nor gave thanks to him, but their thinking became futile and their foolish hearts were darkened. Although they claimed to be wise, they became fools and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images made to look like mortal man and birds and animals and reptiles.” so right from the start, you realize that the people, all the people that paul is addressing in these passages are idolatrous people. people who gave up worshipping gods. and as i said before, there are many gay people who are devout christians and have strong faith in christianity. so right from the start, this passage isn’t talking about gays. now comes the part where they talk about LUST. and remember how above i explained how lust can be shown physically? these same acts would have still been sin even if it was between men and women. Therefore God gave them over in the sinful desires of their hearts to sexual impurity for the degrading of their bodies with one another. THEY EXCHANGED THE TRUTH OF GOD FOR A LIE, and worshiped and served created things rather than the Creator—who is forever praised. Amen. Because of this, God gave them over to shameful LUSTS. Even their women exchanged natural relations for unnatural ones. In the same way the men also abandoned natural relations with women and were INFLAMED WITH LUST for one another. Men committed indecent acts with other men, and received in themselves the due penalty for their perversion. so it is talking about people who commit shameful acts of LUST. the bible is ALWAYS going to say that LUST is a “vile affection”. to the bible, LUST is a “vile affection” whether it is gay or straight. straight LUST affections are also vile affections to the bible. and when paul goes on to list all those nasty qualities, he is still talking about the same people. he is still talking about the people he was talking about from the beginning. the people who had these qualities were the same ones who gave up worshipping god and who had LUSTFUl sex. they are the same people. paul never made a transition and started talking about other people. so my point still stands. how can romans be talking about gay people, when most gay people do not have those qualities? since most gay people don’t have those qualities, romans can’t be talking about gays. romans also said that those people “gave up women”. so what about gay men who have never been with women? they aren’t giving anyone up. there are many gay men out there who have never dated women so romans can’t be talking about them since it said that those people “gave up women”. you can’t use romans to condemn gays. -
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watch me.
First of all, sin was brought about by temptation, (the apple, Satan, being like God) and was brought about by human choice. Sin is not unnatural. Sin is in our nature. You really need to brush up on your Bible reading. Ever hear of our sin nature? It is possible to commit ACTS of lust, but we CANNOT COMMIT LUST ITSELF, which was my point. Lust can be expressed THROUGH OTHER ACTIONS. BUT YOU CANNOT COMMIT LUST IN AND OF ITSELF. I never said Romans didnt mention the worship of other gods. The whole chapter isnt talking about gays; besides, I never even said that. You are focusing on the wrong part of the chapter. Save whether its wrong to worship other gods besides Christ for some other time. >>>27 Likewise also the men, leaving the NATURAL use of the woman, burned in their lust for one another, MEN WITH MEN COMMITTING that which is shameful, and receiving in themselves the penalty of their error which is due. <<< That verse isnt talking about individual men leaving women for men, its talking about a man ignoring what is natural and turning to something that is unnatural. Men leaving the natural use of the woman for one another, which is unnatural. Let me clear this up so maybe, just maybe, even you can understand this. Verse 26 >>>For this cause God gave THEM up unto vile affections: for even THEIR women did change the natural use into that which is against nature: Verse 28 >>>And even as THEY did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave THEM over to a reprobate (highly immoral) mind, to do those things which are not convenient; [list of bad qualities follow]<<< The they and the them he is talking about in verse 28 is the same them that hes talking about in verse 26. The Bibles talking about how people in general had turned away from God and these were some of the things that they were doing. And one of them happened to be being gay. Those verses are in no way ascribing all of those individual traits to every person who is gay. -
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I'm not saying that I disagree with you totally, but you said that you cannot "COMMIT LUST IN AND OF ITSELF". Jesus stated that if a man "lusts after a woman, he has already committed that sin within his heart." Lust is just another word for desire. The thing is, it is usually used to describe evil desires. But some desires have been prohibited for us to even entertain the idea of. If you don't believe me, read the last commandment of the Ten Commandments, "Thou shalt not covet." It is within our nature to sin and to lust after things that are not ours, but the Bible makes the case clear that lust in these forms is absolutely wrong and can very much so be controlled, though it may be hard. So in conclusion, it is possible to 'commit lust'.
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"lusts after a woman, he has already committed the sin within his heart" But not the sin of lust, the sin of fornication or adultery. As for "Thou shalt not covet", I agree with your interpretation. And after examining the definitions of the words, lust and covet fit closely enough together to (well not interchange them) but relate them to one another. And I agree that it is hard but we CAN control our lusts.
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Different Views
I can now see, Cosmosis, that we will have to agree to disagree. I believe that the biblical stance on homosexuality is clearly a negative one and I still don't understand how you can interpret it differently. You say that Jesus said we are no longer under the Old Testament law. I disagree. I don't see how you could say that we are not. I understand that we are no longer under the ceremonial law but I also understand that we are still very much under the moral law. If, as you say, we are not under either one because Leviticus "doesn't count", then I suppose you would allow men to have sex with animals and commit incest. These are things that are not mentioned elsewhere in the Scripture, quite as directly. Are you saying that they are now permissible and more specifically, that Jesus authorized them? I think not. You also stated that I should think about what I am saying before I conclude that homosexuality is condemned because Leviticus condemned it and that many other things are condemned in Leviticus that would make life very inconvenient. You are right that if all of those things were applicable today that life would be a great deal less convenient, but one cannot go and pick and choose what verses to live by and what verses to reject based on their convenience. That is a sure recipe for trouble and evil. It is true that many of the ceremonial verses have been fulfilled and no longer need to be observed (like the eating of unclean food and the rituals of clean and unclean). But it is only true because these things have been sanctified and fulfilled by the Lord. These things, however, do not necessitate inclusion of the moral code. Without the moral code, everything goes. And because the moral code was supported by both Christ and His apostles, it obviously still stands. You also stated that homosexuality in the Old Testament was outlawed on the basis that it counted as a form of idolatry. You make the argument that it is not a sexual sin. Well perhaps you are right. But even if you are, the New Testament clearly states that idolaters have no place in the kingdom of Heaven (1 Corinthians 6:9, Revelations 21:8, Revelations 22:15). What is your response to this? Also, in response to your usage of the translation of the Leviticus verse, I feel that it is necessary to mention that in Greek the verse reads "meta arsenos ou koimethese koiten gunaikos" (18:22) and "hos an koimethe meta arsenos koiten gunaikos" (20:13). From this you can see where I obtain the words 'arsenos' and 'koiten'. Now this is what Leviticus reads and it stands clear that this is where Paul gained the word he used (arsenokoitai). By your own statement in your earlier argument ("jesus don’t condemn gays (well, leviticus does, but it doesn’t count") the homosexuality is condemned in both the Old and New Testaments. If you agree that it is condemned in the Old Testament, then it follows that it is condemned in the New Testament because the Old is the very basis of the New. Your argument of silence is outrageous. You are comparing apples and oranges and I think you know it. You also never replied to my question about bestiality and incest and the like. Jesus did not mention those, so again I ask you, are they okay? As stated at the beginning of this argument, I don't think we will ever agree on this. But one day, both of us will stand before God and I'm sure we'll find out who was right. And I can guarantee you that it will not be me or you. It will be God who is right. -
technically, if you go strictly by the bible, christianity isn't really against incest. think about it, how did adam and even and their children procreate?-through incest. when lot left sodom with his daughters his daughters had sex with him and got pregnant, still no condemnation. how did noah and his family repopulate the earth?-through incest. i know many forms of incest were condemned by the hebrews but what is interesting is that father-daughter incest wasn't condemed. so technically if you go strictly by the bible incest isn't a sin. i know that our modern society frowns upon incest and i do, to but that doesn't make it a sin. also comparing homosexuality to incest is not a smart thing to do. incest has very high risks of birth defects for children conceived as a result of it, but homosexuality is no more dangerous than heterosexuality. we know this now due to our technology, but the ancient people didn't. going strictly by the bible, incest isn't technically a sin. jesus condemned lust (i don't remember the exact passage, but i rememver reading him saying that even looking at a something with lust is a sin) so when a person has sex with an animal, most likely he/she does not romantically love the animal he is having sex with, so therefore it would be lust, which jesus condemned. in the extremely rare event that the person romantically loves the animal, the animal doesn't have the ability to love him back and animals can't say yes or no to sex. so technically it would be an act of rape, which is a sin. gay people on the other hand are capable of loving eachother and gay sex can be a form of love, just like straight sex. and love is not a sin. also, i never said all of leviticus was cancelled. i said that law against gay male sex was cancelled because it was an idolatrous/ceremonial prohibition. you even said i was right when i said it was an idolatrous prohibition. idolatrous prohibitions are the same as ceremonial prohibitions and all of those laws are no longer in effect for christians. which you also agreed with. i know the bible says idolaters "don't inherit the kingdom of god". that doesn't mean homosexuals. as i said before that law was nullified along with the other laws such as not eating shellfish etc. eating shellfish was considered idolatrous/ceremonially banned but people who eat shellfish don't go to hell for eating shellfish. that law is no longer in effect. not everything in the old is the basis for the new. which i just explained since many of the laws from the old testament no longer apply. and i proved in an earlier post why the prohibition against gay sex no longer applies. (remember when i said that the word "abomination/toevah" was strictly used for ceremonial prohibitions. the word toevah/abomination was used to describe eating shellfish. so to the hebrews, gay male sex was the same as eating shellfish, and eating shellfish is no longer a sin, and gay male sex is no longer a sin. also, i showed you how the verse was listed in relation to another god, this shows that it was definately a ceremonial/idolatrous prohibition. and these types of prohibitions no-longer apply. murder and theft still apply because they are NOT ceremonial prohibitions in that they do not relate to idolatry whatsoever. the prohibition against gay sex does relate to idolatry and we know that those types of prohibitions don't apply) also, if it were that simple to translate "arsenokoitai" then why are there so many different translations of it? why don't all the different versions of the bible translate it as homosexual? since every bible translates the word differently, you can see that it is not that simple. also just because it combines the words "man" and "bed", that is no reason to automatically assume it means a homosexual. (for example, if you know the words "up" and "tight", that doesn't mean you know the word "uptight") i assume that you are aware of the term pederasst, which is a man who sleeps with young boys. this word can also fit the describtion of arsenokoitai and it wouldn't mean homosexuality. some bibles even translate it as pederassts. also, pederassty was very common in ancient rome/greece so there is a highly likely possibility that it is talking about pederassts, not homosexuals. also, back then there was no word for homosexual/ity, the word literally did not exist, in any language. so how could paul right down the word homosexual when it wasn't even an invented word yet? there is a lot of evidence showing that there is a highly likely possibility that "arsenokoitai" doesN'T mean homosexual. also, in abrahamic religions, polygamy is ok, and there is no actual prohibition against premarital sex. only lustful sex is condemned. so premarital sin is not a sin if it is out of love. so don't reply saying that homosexual sex is a sin because it is outside of marriage, because there was no ban on extra-marital sex. (i know you never mentioned that argument, i'm just stating my defense ahead of time incase you decide to use that in your argument later on)(adultery doesn't mean extra-marital sex either, it means to cheat on your spouse with another. that doens't mean pre-marital sex. i know that you didn't say that it did, but i'm just saying it ahead of time because i already debated with someone else on the meaning of adultery and i don't want to do it again incase you did believe that adultery meant pre-marital sex.) this is why i don't believe homosexuality to be a sin, because the levitical verse against gay male sex doesn't apply, and corinthians/arsenokoitai can be interpreted as pederasts/prostitutes,etc. (i also explained up there how sodom wasn't destroyed for homosexuality and how romans doesn't talk about gay people).
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As stated before..
I don't think we will be able to find agreement on this issue. We are both operating in some form of a priori which is good but we have different views on what the words mean that we are working with. I must say, I like the way you argue. You present nothing short of a challenge to anyone whom would wish to debate you and I applaude that. Your knowledge on the subjects shows that you've thought them through and are not acting out of emotion and I respect that a lot. I still believe homosexuality to be wrong because of the reasons stated before. There is to much uniformity against homosexuality throughout the Bible for me to bless it. But it doesn't matter. I'm neither God nor gay. So, in conclusion, good match, Cosmosis. -
come off your high horse, you.
what i don't understand is why so many christians are bent and determined on rebuking others when we are all equal sinners in God's eyes. i don't have a bible on me, but i'm pretty sure that for every one "anti-homosexual" verse you could point out to me, i could find five that run along the lines of "do not judge, for you shall be judged as you judge others" or "love thy neighbor as thyself." in essence, it is not for us to punish another for their sins. my personal philosophy is that whether i accept or support homosexuality or not is moot, because while it may or may not be a sin, i sin just as much as a homosexual person. someone else's sins are NOT OF MY BUSINESSS. honestly, i'm so sick of people who go around condemning others for their sins when the condemner is NO BETTER than the 'condemnee.' -
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First of all, I'm not coming down, I happen to like the view from up here. And we are debating whether being gay or not is a sin. Not who has sinned more or to what degree is a homosexual sin. They said it isn't a sin and I have a different interpretation. Get a grip.
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you "get a grip." my comment was not aimed at you, it was in response to jesusquest's post. is your name jesusquest? i didn't think so. furthermore, since you've apparently taken offense, did i say anything about "who has sinned more or to what degree is a homosexual(ality) sin"? no. i said that we need to remember that none of us are perfect, and therefore not fit to judge or condmen anyone else. you want to talk about sin? lemme quote for you: -------------------------------------------------- Romans 14:10 "You, then, why do you judge your brother? Or why do you look down on your brother? For we shall all stand before God's judgement seat....(13) So then let us stop passing judgement on one another. Instead, make up your mind not to put any stumbling block or obstacle in your brother's way." -------------------------------------------------- Luke 6:37 "Do not judge, and you will not be judged. Do not condemn, and you will not be condemned." -------------------------------------------------- (my favorite!) Romans 3:22 "...There is no difference, for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God." -------------------------------------------------- my purpose with this (and my previous) post is not to argue whether or not homosexuality is a sin; rather, it is to remind us that none of us are in a postion to judge, condemn, rebuke, or denounce others for their sins.
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I am not judging, condemning, rebuking, or denouncing anyone for anything. They think that Romans does not say that being gay is a sin. I think differently. If you don't think that anyone should judge anyone else, post an entire new debate about that. This one is about whether scripture says being gay is right or wrong. P.S. II Timothy 3:16,17 >>>All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.<<<
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hypocritical god
God is hypocritical. the Bible more specifically. its not a legitimate book as it did not come directly from God himself but rather one of his disciples wrote it basedon his memories of God and his word. we can't rely on that for the foundation of life just like we cant rely on the fact that a man carrying a knife onto a plane wouldnt turn out to be a murderer. theres too many empty spaces and unanswered questions that christians dont acknowledge. God created homosexuals just as he created heterosexuals. and for this reason condemning them makes him a hypocrite. -
If we can't rely on the Bible or other religious texts to define our morality, then what do you propose we define it as? Should we make up our own? You seem to speak as though God does exist (which I agree with) and that He does have an opinion about our sexuality (which I also agree with) and yet you seem to state that it is impossible for us to know what the truth that God holds actually is. If it is impossible to know the truth on such things, then you are right that we can't say things are wrong. But by Jove, you can't go saying things are right either. It is much safer to say something is wrong and be incorrect than to say something is right and be incorrect.
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what is right in love is what is felt by the heart. there is no such thing as the right or wrong to anyone about anyone's actions other than the person who expresses their love. you cant say that love is wrong when to someone else, it can be completely right.
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I can say that and I will. If a man were to love drugs, that is wrong. If he loves murder, that is wrong. If a man loves being inappropriate with little kids, that is wrong. Love can be a very wrong thing. The lover involved can be a very wrong thing. If we define our morality by our 'hearts' and our 'loves' we will soon find ourselves immersed in death, destruction, evil, and lust because, unfortunately, our greatest love is for ourselves.
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drugs are harmful...they cause addiction and could greatly damage you psychologically and mentally, murder harms other people...., and being innapropriate with kids would very much upset the child and cause him/her psychological harm. that is why those things are wrong. they harm people. homosexuality on the other hand harms no-one. homosexuality is no different from heterosexuality in its harmfullness. that is why you can't compare murder and pedophilia to homosexuality.
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my comment got put in twice...this site should allow people to delete comments :P
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and still, someone somewhere sees all of those actions differently then you or i. they may find those actions perfectly normal despite what you may think is wrong. and if that drives us to destroy and so on, its still love for something and is still considered right and justified by a person.
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My point was not to prove homosexuality wrong, Cosmosis. As you've said before, we've had that conversation a couple of times. ~laughs~ The point I was trying to make was that love can not decide a morality. To me it seemed as though that were the opinion that wishonafallenstar was making. If that is the case, I do not think it to be so for the reasons stated before. We can love a myriad of obviously wrong things but that in no way makes them right. It does not usually or necessarily make them right for the person doing the acts either. There have been child molesters whom can not let go of their habits because they "love those children so much" and yet are disgusted with their behavior. Though they love it, they recognize there to be something wrong with it. I hope that makes sense. If not, I'll try again.
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i believe it is natural10% Voted for by cosmosis, Cornilius, thynyeguy, piazza cavour, cante jondo.
there are several reasons why i believe this to be so
1)there are gay animals and the dictionary defines natural as what happens in nature. now, sure you can argue that animals do a bunch of stuff that is not suitable for humans to do but it is still natural, it is still natural for that species. so whether or not you believe homosexuality to be right or wrong or to be acceptable to humans or not doesn't stop it from being natural.
2)people don't choose to be gay. people are attracted to people of their own gender not by their own choice. so if you are religious, then this means that it is god who gave gay people their sexuality and it can't be wrong.
3)a man's g-spot is located inside his anus. if you believe in god, then you believe that god created men with a g-spot inside them and why would god create men with a g-spot inside their anus if it was bad to have sex in there?
so if you take into consideration that homosexuality occurs in nature, that gay people don't choose to be gay, and that men were designed to have straight and gay sex then it becomes overwhelmingly clear that homosexuality is natural/normal/not wrong.
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My thoughts8% Voted for by keyman7, Mujtaba H Zaidi, Emotions, ElisaRose.
I've considered homosexuality for quite some time and thought a great deal about the legitimacy or illegitimacy of it. I hope to portray here the conclusions I've come to. Many people out there make the argument that people are born gay and that it is therefore natural and good. Others go against that by saying that it is a 'disease' or something to that degree. Both of them have possibly valid points. We have people who are born with a disorder that leads them to murder and to do terrible things. But we also have people who are 'natural born' humanitarians. There are people who are born with a mind that cannot think at all, but there are people who can do college math at the age of three. These are all things that people are born with. My point here is that just as any one of these things can be a good or bad thing (however natural it may be) homosexuality can be a good or bad thing (however natural it may be). From the physiological standpoint, I don't fully understand what makes a man sexually attracted to another man. But I do observe that his body is not made for intercourse with the same sex. The anus is no more a vagina than a coconut is a basketball. It violates a physiological natural order. (Either that or evolution has not had time to catch up to the natural progess of mankind's sexuality) The same is true for the females, but not as easily described. So from an objective standpoint of the physiological, it is unnatural. Some have also made the argument that homosexuality is natural in that it can be seen in animals. In the end, this proves nothing. Many different animals fight one another to the death, force females to breed, and eat their own young. If homosexuality should be looked on as legitimate because of a display in animals then we can throw our 6000 years of growing culture to hell. The truth here is that we are not animals and can not be expected to act like them just because they do it. To those who see nothing wrong with this lifestyle I would like to ask, what do you look for in the defining of right and wrong? The same goes for those who disagree with this lifestyle. The story of Adam and Eve states that we have attained a knowledge of good and evil and I believe that we have. But how do you, all of you, measure and interpret that knowledge? This is only the tip of the iceberg in my interpretation, but it is a start for the moment. Replies?
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Adding your comment: -
*"But I do observe that his body is not made for intercourse with the same sex. The anus is no more a vagina than a coconut is a basketball. So...*[the act of homosexuality]*...is unnatural."* I disagree that just because the body is not made for homosexual intercourse, homosexual intercourse is therefore unnatural. The ear is not made for having foreign peices of metal peirced through it. The body is not made for driving a car (if so, perhaps we'd have inbuilt airbags) The body is not designed for eating such a tame diet as we do today (we have spleens which are designed for digesting bones/feathers - which we no longer eat (save at McDonalds) So it is not enough to say that because the body is not designed for homosexuality, it is 'unnatural'. Unless you start nitpicking Amish definitions, it is very hard to what 'natural' actually is. *"The truth here is that we are not animals and can not be expected to act like them just because they do it."* Why are we not animals? Biologically we are just like animals. Who say's we're not animals, and is it true for all of us? Can you prove it? *"It violates a physiological natural order."* Do you mean _physical_ natural order? I can't see anything in your argument to pursuade that there is a violation of the "physiological natural order". If you do mean physical, then howso? Why do you hold that homosexuality is a violation of the 'physical natural order'? Where does it say that? Just a few questions, as ever.
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i agree with ennoia on this.
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Thank you for your diplomatic response and just questions. I appreciate that. Now to try to answer your questions... I'll start with the easiest. I did mean to say 'physiological'. The term has to do directly with the body and with life. 'Physical' is much more general. And I'll follow with the second easiest. I do not believe humans are animals because I define a human to be a conscious person. That is, I would consider a human to be a person and a person to be something with conscious freedom. I do not believe that animals have conscious freedom. In my opinion, animals are aware of the laws and instincts that guide them, but are not conscious of their ability to break these laws. You might say that they do not possess a knowledge of good and evil. But this is an entirely different argument altogether. I will finish this paragraph saying that while I believe us to be very similar to animals physically as you mentioned, we are nothing like them metaphysically. One might even say that it is "what separates man from the apes". As for the beginning of your argument, I would say that homosexuality is no more natural than any of those things you mentioned. It is not in our physical nature to put things through our ears or eat such soft (not to mention unhealthy) diets. It is not natural because our bodies are not given provisions for such things. The same is true for homosexuality. But just because something is physically unnatural, it does not make it wrong. It merely means that it could be used wrong, that it could go wrong. If a man is a born genious, he is naturally born that way but has an unnatural aspect to his existence. That aspect is neither good nor evil, but how he resonds to it is. The same is true for our sexualities. We may gain them by natural birth, but they can be unnatural in the grand scheme of things. The question is, is it a harmless desire to chase after or is it something that is a terrible evil to pursue. I've not stated in this argument whether I think homosexuality to be right or wrong, I've only laid the grounds for a debate where I hope a conclusion will be obtained.
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Okay then; I'm still not sure what you mean by *"it violates a physiological natural order."* I understand these to terms to be scientific and specialised, do you have any premises or reasons to back up this arguement? So far, it is a claim with no logical support. I have never read about any, either, but I'd be interested to hear what you have to say. *"In my opinion, animals are aware of the laws and instincts that guide them, but are not conscious of their ability to break these laws"* I understand what you are saying. However, you do state it is only your opinion, and, again, I can see no objective reasoning as to _why_. None of us can make any claims about whether or not animals percieve good and evil, or have a conscience. (I have owned cats all my life and worked a lot with horses, and after getting to know these animals, I'm absolutely certain they are conscious of there being rules, and damn well know when they are breaking them! Whether this constitues a knowledge of right or wrong, i do not know, and since I have no scientific evidence of brain activity etc, I cannot make a claim as to say that animals *do* have knowledge of right or wrong. However, by this same logic, neither can you make the claim that they *don't*. Also, I don't believe that all right and all wrong is absolute. Who's to say that the sense of right and wrong, if it does exist in the animal kingdom, is the same as the code that exists in the human world? (There are lots of issues in our world that aren't absolutely resolved, anyway; abortion, euthanasia, 'holy' war, the death sentence etc) Anyway, it's not enough to argue that because one person's opinion is that animals are not conscious of right or wrong, we can claim that being gay isn't natural. *"we are nothing like them metaphysically."* Why? *"But just because something is physically unnatural, it does not make it wrong"* Yeah, I completely agree with this. I don't know where you stand on the evolution debate, but i suppose one could argue that perceived 'unnatural things' i mentioned, such as driving a car, and the abandonment of the spleen, could be viewed as social and biological evolution. *"is it a harmless desire to chase after or is it something that is a terrible evil to pursue."* Do you mean homosexuality? If so, why do you think you/some people (not sure who's opinion this is) claim it to be a terrible evil?
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Let me first say that I really appreciate your diplomacy. I feel like we are having a debate/discussion and not a violent emotion fed argument. Makes me wish to meet you in person....but to the discussion at hand. What I meant when I said that homosexuality violates a physiological order had to do with my statements of an anus not being a vagina and so forth. I've thought about that statement a lot and have been bothered by it. Under those conditions, homosexual sex would be unnatural, but no more unnatural than cunnilingus or a variety of other sexual behaviors observed in both homosexual and heterosexual partners. There are so many varieties of sexual acts out there (most of which are looked on as completely legitimate even by religious groups) that a debate of right and wrong based on the means by which the act takes place is one that is in the very least futile. In conclusion to this portion of my wonderings, I must conclude that homosexuality is not wrong (though it may be unnatural) on the basis of the way it is performed. I know that you said you were interested in what I had to say, so before moving on I'll attempt to describe the thoughts I had concerning this. To begin I would say that from the outside it looks like the human body was 'built' for heterosexual sex. In point of fact it is perfectly built for heterosexual sex, and thereby perfect for procreation. So when the thought of using that perfect machine another way that it looks like it should be used, the common
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