Do you believe sadism (and sometimes masochism) are inherently found in many major religions?
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Yes, Most Religions Are Sadistic44% Voted for by orcaluge, Luciferschild, LaDiabla, TurtleSensei.
I’m just going to focus on Christianity for now, please don’t take offense, this is an open forum, you can debate it from now ‘till whenever. Firstly, let me define “sadism” for those who do not know what it means: either derivation, sexual or nonsexual, from cruelty, or the act of cruelty itself. The first reason is why I believe Christianity is sadistic. The following are just random questions on Christianity. 1. The method of salvation relies on the death of another human being (namely Jesus). This view holds human life as something of transactional value, something to appease an angry God with the death of one of His/Her creations. Not to go off-topic, but the very idea that God needs to be appeased in itself is oxymoronic, assuming that by “God” you mean omnipotent, perfect, and ever powerful Being. Something of that definition should not, and indeed, could not have wants, needs, or desires, otherwise, that challenges the definition of perfection. 2. “Original sin-” according to Christianity, one hundred percent (minus Jesus) or humans are born this way. That would mean that one hundred percent of humans are born inherently evil. If that’s the case, then why should we want salvation? And going back to the first point, our salvation relies on the death of one human being? And if all of our sins or on Jesus’ back, then shouldn’t Jesus be in Hell? 3. The idea of salvation through Jesus: (Correct me if I’m wrong here, it may only be certain sects of Christianity that believe this)- according to Christianity, all you need to do is accept Jesus, and then once you die, you are sent to Heaven. That means that good people who did not believe in Jesus are sent to certain eternal damnation; it means that abortions, stillbirths, and babies who die within a time period so short that the parents didn’t even get to NAME them will burn in Hell; it means that retarded people (who cannot fully accept Jesus out of their own free will) and ignorant people around the globe will burn in a fiery pit; and it means that every person before Jesus went to Hell. 4. I realize that Christianity did not practice this originally, but I’m expressing my view on the modern church- celibacy. Another act of sadism by the church onto its priests, and an act of masochism by the priests themselves. There is no marriage and no sex in this constriction. To hold people back from sex is wrong, especially because none of their genes could be passed on. Originally, rich and intelligent people had at least one son or daughter that went into the church. Since they could not reproduce, (to take from a Beatles song) they were buried along with their name. Please remember, these are only OPINIONS. You are FREE to express YOURS, but to attack ME is simply a logical fallacy. Have a nice day :-)
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No.33% Voted for by dauer, pozo, Evets.
I think it can occasionally be found, but it’s not something inherent. I also think it’s easy to confuse aceticism with sadism. Extreme aceticism is clearly sadistic. But if it’s only a matter of disciplining intake in order to transcend the sense I really don’t think such a definition is accurate.
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Religion is not ChristianityVoted for by nujay.
Accepting Christ is a spiritual thing and the mental aspect is an outworking of that. A mental confession of Christ needs to come from within and not from the head. All babies that die go to heaven. Retards even with their mental issues still have a spirit. Many retards as we call them may actually be more in tune with the spirit world than we are. Retards know right from wrong and by this I do not mean moral fashions that we cling to in moral society.
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Sadism is present because of flaws.Voted for by Theatre Mormon.
To the extent that almost all religion is inherently distorted and intertwined with the philosophies of man (which are inherently against the will of God), I almost have to say that they are. There are parts of them all that are true, and some that aren't.
The untrue parts are sadistic. They are, essentially, lies. Lies that one man wished to tell the world to make them feel good. To make them become complacent and forget their purpose here on Earth. If that isn't cruel, I don't know what is.
However, sometimes it is simple misguidance that brings about these things, and the lies come from Satan unwittingly. Man isn't perfect, he can be fooled, and some people are not always observant enough to spot a fake or a charlatan.
So, inherently, they are, to an extent, because of their imperfections, sadist. But not because of a sacrifice necessary to 'appease an angry God', which isn't at all what Jesus' death was for.
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February 21, 2005
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Mujtaba H Zaidi
February 26, 2005
Your comments are very impressive!
Respected Orcaluge!..I am really moved by your logical and weighty argues.I strongly agree with you that we must ponder on while performing anything as well as believing anything.I have also the same questions in my mind.I want to reply you according to my own knowledge, and it's just an opinion, so no body should get annoyed pls. (1)Jesus Christ is one of the holiest personalities created by the Greatest Creator.Jesus's birth is a wonderful miracle and his mother i.e. the Holy Mary was not only a very chaste virgin,but also was one of the four noblest ladies of the world.Jesus was sent to this world not for the salvation. Instead he was sent to teach, preach and guide the humanity suffering from the attacks of vile and vice.He was not sent for salvation.Neither he was crucified. He was tortured by the cruel people and was hanged, but Almighty God saved him by picking him up and now he is alive in the 4th firmament, and will surely return to guide us again. In the same way,Almighty's love can be won and achieved by having strong and complete belief in Him,all His holy Prophets(peace and blessings of Almighty God be upon them all)without discrimination, His Angels and the holy Books and in the Day of Resurrection/Judgement as well as by doing good,refraining from vice, practicing virtue and loving humanity and begging His pardons.We are ourself responsible to all our deeds and misdeeds. Secondly, God is above all the human desires and wants. He is all aware of all our deeds. He neither dozes nor sleeps at all.We can please our Fashioner by observing chastity and being pious. (2) All the babies are born quite innocent, and it's the society that corrupts them.No one will bear the burden and load of the misdeeds of the others at any cost. One is responsible to his own evil-doings. (3) Beleif in Almighty God, His holy Messengers, His holy Books, His holy Angels and the Day of Judgement are the inevitable things that must be the part of one's faith to enter the heavens after winning God's love on the bases of such beliefs and by doing good and leading a virtuous life.Moreover,an unborn and a small child who has died in childhood will be gifted a place between heavens and hell. And he will not be thrown into Fires. (4) Celibacy is undoubtedly a very hard ordeal, a very tough trial. The people of church while living in church devise such ways to satisfy their lust and sexual desire that may corrupt the whole society.So, marriage must be observed by all the healthy members of society. Dear All!........These are my views, and I offer comments on these views.No one should get annoyed please. Thanks and Regards.April 25, 2005
erm... that's not exactly orthodox christianity is it?
Just to clarify, and sorry in advance to mujtaba... That's not what orthodox christians believe. In fact, it flat out contradicts the bible: You said "Jesus was sent to this world not for the salvation." John 3:17 says: "For God did not send his son into the world to condemn it, but to save the world through him." You also said "Neither he was crucified." But Paul writes in 1 Cor. 15:12-14: "But if it is preached that Christ has been raised from the dead, how can some of you sya that there is no ressurection of the dead? if there is no ressurection of the dead, then not even Christ has been raised. And if Christ has not been raised, then our preaching is useless and so is your faith" (The implication I'm trying to draw out here is that in order for there to be a ressurection, Christ must have died.) Secondly, christans normally believe that we are saved by the grace, which we accept through faith, and that we cannot be justified before God by our actions, otherwise there was no need for Jesus, or any of the story of the Bible. Just rip it out. What's the point of even having a religion if God has no role in human lives? I could just ignore him until judgement day. Just read Romans, the whole book talks about the role of God's grace. It is absolutly fundamental to christianity. It teaches that "all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God." No one is able to live a prefect life. How then can anyone be justifed by their deeds? EVERYONE messes up at some point or another. Where in the world did you dig up those heresies? SteveApril 30, 2005
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whoops.
Oh, wait, you're muslim, aren't you? :$ lol. Sorry, I've been going to bible college for too long, and I'm too used to aguing with other christians. lol. Sorry, I meant no offence. SteveMarch 18, 2005
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Great knowledge
Wow Mujtaba H Zaidi..............u showed a new light to me.......u r logical, broad-minded and spiritual. I will reply ur argues soon. thank you!March 23, 2005
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um not really
First if you are focusing on one religion then know what they believe (not a criticism just a word of advice). Yes it is believed that Jesus did die for the salvation of others one big point you are missing is that Jesus is believed to be God in human form. So it was not at all to appease the anger of God. More like the total love of God, for the creator to suffer, to go through death, to offer salvation to his creation. How does being God- omnipotent, perfect, and ever powerful Being. As you said: exclude wants. I think that it does quite the oposit if you are said to be a V. V. V. good person this would imply that you would want to help people Original sin the idea that sin has entwined its self around the human body or sole like a disease. Making us impure and separating us from God. This is why we would want salvation. You are right when you say that Jesus should have gone through hell (separation from God the father) it is believed that Jesus did this before he died on the cross. Another thing you say that people who unable to make a choice, people who have not heard and people physically unable to will go to hell. It says that people like these will be judged justly and I don’t think that sending them to hell would be just so it is likely Celibacy in the context you are saying considered a personal choice in Christianity and not something that should be forced on anyone.April 25, 2005
a christian reply
Interesting points, and well-argued, too bad it's wrong. :) I'll reply to your arguments by number. Here we go: 1) a) First, I would like to point out that just because sacrafice was the method of salvation, that does not make it sadistic. God got no pleasure out of watching his son die. The picture painted of Jesus' death in all four gospels is a sobering, grim portrait. It was not pleasant. Thus, it was neither sadistic for God, nor for those who chose to believe in Jesus. b ) You are right in saying that Jesus' death filled a need, however, you err by implying that it is God's need. The need lies with human beings. Let me rephrase: Jesus' death on the cross fulfilled the need that we, as sinful human beings have. Since human beings are sinful, that is why we need God. We have no way to get to God, but Jesus provided that. So, this was not something done by man to make God happy, rather, it was an act BY GOD to save mankind from it's sin and suffering. 2. a) If you are sick, you desire to be healthy no? According to origional sin, we are all born with a sinful nature, that is, we will all sin. However, human beings were not origionally created this way. Adam was created sinless, and that is the way we were intended to be as well. Thus, it is reasonable to say that it would be more natural for human beings to want to be sinless, for that is how we were intended to be, and that is what God desires for us. b ) It would seem like Jesus should be in hell if he bore all our sins, shouldn't it? But the ressurection is the whole reason Christianity works! Let me explain. Yes Jesus died, thus paying the penalty for the sins of the world. But hell could not hold him, because he had done no wrong: he was really innocent of God's wrath. He conquered death, and rose from the grave. The fact that Jesus was sinless was the reason why he was able to die for the world, and it was also the reason why he rose from the dead. Through his death and resurection, sin is conquered, and hell has no power. "Where, oh death, is thy victory? Where, oh death, is thy sting?" (1 Cor. 15:55 & Hosea 13:14) 3. Yes, that is the orthodox christian view of salvation. I admit, this is a question that troubles many christians. There are two replies to this: First, (and this is the harsher one) Every person DESERVES to go to hell anyways, we are born defective right off the bat. The problem is, we don't have a good enough picture of our own sinfulness. We should be thankful God chose to save us few. Or secondly, (this is more of a cop-out) God is just, and will those things into account. If one does not have the opportunity to accept Jesus, they will be given one. The point is not that you accept Jesus, but rather that you not reject him, whether by your words, or your actions or otherwise. Also, the bible does say in Hebrews 11 that people before Jesus were justified to God through their faith, right from abraham up to Jesus' time. The sacrificial system set up in the old testament was God's way of justifying our sins; Jesus' death is but an extension of that system. I've always been troubled by this problem, but I think that this answer is sufficient. However, I do admit that both explainations are rather weak. I tend to lean towards the second explaination as best. 4. Preistly celibacy is not sadism or masochism. Again, it is not a pleasurable thing per se, but neither is it torture for torture's sake. It is a duty, a way for the preist to remain completly focused on his calling. Paul wrote somewhere that it is better for a man to stay single if he's in ministry, that way he can focus better on his calling. Then again, Paul was a bachelor. :P Oh yes, something which I overlooked: for preists, celibacy is never imposed. It is part of the package of being called into ministry, and they make the commitment willingly, understanding the requirements and the duties that they are taking on. As someone who is preparing to become a pastor (thank goodness I'm not catholic. :P), I can tell you that it is NOT a commitment that is made lightly. You understand what you're getting into. I hope I have sufficiently answered your questions. Well argued! doulos christou, SteveMay 20, 2005
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GO SPARKY!!!
Ok well im new to this forum but im gonna jump right in. i have to agree with Sparky25 for the most part. he definately knows what hes talking about. orcaluge, you put up a very good argument and i agree with a lot of what you said but there are a few things i would like to respond to. you stated that you believed that infants and mentally handicapped people cannot be saved and are therefore condemned to eternal damnation but you are misguided in this aspect. an infant would be completely unable to learn about god in any way, no matter how long it lived. if a child is completely unable to learn about god, why would that child go to hell? he never had the chance to learn therefore he never had the opportunity to accept of deny christ and therefore he is blameless. i cant think of the verse off the top of my head but i believe it says in the bible that infants are blameless and are guaranteed salvation until they are able to make their own decision. i may be wrong about that being in the bible and if i am please tell me so i can look up exactly what it says. and in regards to the celibacy, that is a vow that priests make of their own free will. they have a choice to either choose a life of marriage and all that is associated with it but they openly choose to remain alone. it is not forced on them, it is their choice. well i hope my insight has helped and i look forward to partaking in more discussions as intellectual as this.November 22, 2005
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Simple Point!
God being perfect, and by definition of perfect would have no need for the entire Jesus ordeal, nor would God have been protrayed so human as the bible has done. The bible does say on occasion, "It is God's Will..." or "God desired..." the definition of perfect does not allow for god to have a will, nor desire, for god would be perfect, and things would simply just be.April 10, 2006
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An Agnostic's View
O.K. reading this, I'm actually quite surprised with the arguments that are brought up. Usually when I get into this topic of discussion with others, I get insulted morally and mentally before they ever even understand me or what I am trying to say. So let's see, Jesus, in my opinion, was a man, a mere profit, who decided to bring hope to the people around him. Think of how bad the world was back then. There was sickness, war, slaves. He gave them all hope. Was he a divine being? I don't know and I really do not care. All I know is that he brought hope to a people that had been in tormented pverty for ages. The religions of old taught equality yes, but they'd been around so long, that people were beginning to forget. That's all religion is in my opinion, a set of laws created by someone smart, who sees that we need someone/thing to believe in and follow in order to cope in this world. Yes, someone/thing created us, but in my opinion we're just being watched closely and we've been let to live out our lives as WE choose. So poeple just sit and think, every religion tells you to LOVE one another, so DO IT! Thin,k of each and every person as if they are your twin. And treat them so. Don't judge on color, creed, intelligence, sexual preferance or gender, hell, don't even judge. Think of what your religious texts say, not what you think they say. Seriously people, to judge another human being based on anything except how they treat you is WRONG, WRONG, WRONG!! ...and on that not I'm don...just...people...please. Think before you discriminate. Think of what God would think of you before you insult that boy for being gay, or that girl for being too poor to buy the "it" shoes. THINK THINK THINK THINK for GOD'S SAKE THINK!!! ~Adieu ~Turtle Sensei ~I'll add more later...April 10, 2006
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Hmm
Hmmm I rather do like your argument. And I hope you do well in your service to God. It seems to me that lately, not very many people are finding themselves "called" into the order anymore. I'm glad that someone is. May I ask how old you are? And how soon you will be becoming a pastor? And how long you've known that you've wanted to be one? Adieu! ~Turtle Sensei/Dessira'June 18, 2006
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July 8, 2007
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"to attack ME is simply a logical fallacy"...
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