There are 11 choices, 13 votes for IridescentRose's debate

Do you have to be baptized to go to Heaven?

• Baptized is necessary but not for salvation

  Rose, Being baptized does not bring salvation, only Christ can do that. Since you are a Christian I'm sure you knew that though. Being a Christian then you know Christ is our example. Remember, Christ died on a cross publically for you. He was not ashamed of you. So we are to be baptized publically for Him. By being baptized we are physically saying to everyone that we are not ashamed of the gospel of Christ. Christ says in effect that if we are ashamed of Him in front of other men that He will be ashamed of us in front of God the Father. So do we have to be baptized to be saved??? The answer is no for salvation comes through Christ only. The thief on the cross had not been baptized when Christ told him today you will be with me in paradise for he did not have the opportunity since he was hanging on a cross at the time. I believe being baptized is necessary as a Chrisitian in your walk with Christ but not necessary for salvation. Remember Rose, Christ is the example. Just think of being baptized as an outward expression of an inward experience. Take care my friend.

  23%  Voted for by Energizer Bunny, Makessenseright, crosscountry07.

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  • 
    Weydon
    May 2, 2006
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    I guess. LOL. I dunno. If Baptism or even Confrimation was more of an adult choice I'd either not go through with it or only go through with it because it would give my mom a heart attack if I didn't. This wouldn't be because I'm ashamed of Christ or my beliefs, but because it's just too showy. It's like on graduation day when you walk across in a big cap and gown and get called up by name and everyone cheers and they hand you...a blank piece of paper. You earned the grades, you will get your diploma, but the ceremony is just a show. There should be less of a stress on advertising how tight you are with God and Christ and more of a stress on being Christ-like.
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    Energizer Bunny
    May 3, 2006
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    There should be less of a stress on advertising how tight you are with God and Christ and more of a stress on being Christ-like. -------------------------------------------------- You are speaking more on discipleship now instead of baptism. If any Christian wants to be Christ-like then I hope they are as you say tight with God. But, Christ died for us publically, not in private. Now, he calls for us to take up our cross and follow Him publically and it starts with baptism. From a Christian perspective you are not saying "look at what I'm doing", but in fact you are saying "look at what Christ has done for me". That is the major difference. When you say stress on being Christ-like, then you are speaking on discipleship which comes after that. Things happen in the proper order. Salvation is totally "free", but discipleship is very costly. How costly?? It will cost you your life! -->this is where "take up your cross and follow me" comes in. When you talk about it being too showy, that is what I am speaking about. A Christian should be pointing toward Christ and not "self". that is why baptism seems showy. Notice I said "seems" for it actually is not. It is symbolic of the death, burial, and resurrection of Christ. It is pointing towards what Christ has done for you, not how you are obeying Him. Again, that is discipleship. Again, baptism will not save you but it's very important in one's walk with Christ. You earned the grades, you will get your diploma, but the ceremony is just a show. -------------------------------------------------- True but in reference to God you earn NO grades. You cannot be good enough to get to Heaven. So, no matter how good you are salavation will not come through no other means except by Christ. It's not about what you can do but rather what Christ can do through you. that is the major difference.
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    Weydon
    May 3, 2006
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    If I felt that that was what Baptism truly was today, I'd be all for it. And I'm sure some still see it as that. But I feel for the most part, it is all show an excuses for parents to get presents. I don't believe it is needed for salvation in the slightest, because I feel that your religious beliefs really don't matter as long as you are a good person. Like marriage, the ceremony can be there as a nice symbol for something that already exists: love and dedication for someone or something. These feelings should have existed long before the ceremonies and should exist even if you're stranded on an island somewhere and can't have them performed properly. "True but in reference to God you earn NO grades. You cannot be good enough to get to Heaven. " Well, I'll agree with you there, we are pretty crappy people. Though I'd be willing to argue it would be irresponsible of Him to create such an imperfect people without lowering the standards of not being doomed for all eternity. "So, no matter how good you are salavation will not come through no other means except by Christ. It’s not about what you can do but rather what Christ can do through you. that is the major difference." I don't follow. Are you saying you have to believe in Christ? That Christ does your best deeds actually, and what you are capable of is irrelevent? Something else?
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      Energizer Bunny
      May 4, 2006
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      I feel that your religious beliefs really don’t matter as long as you are a good person. -------------------------------------------------- So basically you are saying your good deeds will get you into heaven huh? So you think you can EARN you way a first class ticket there? That thinking is flawed. Who is to say what is good enough? What if I'm slightly good only, is that good enough? What if I am just a little above that? What if I say something bad to someone will that cause me to land on God's "naughty" list? Your theory is flawed and basic reasoning points it out. Even if you say God says when your good enough, then show me his measuring stick? When you say good, just how good is good? Sorry, I cannot aree with that reasoning at all. it would be irresponsible of Him to create such an imperfect people without lowering the standards of not being doomed for all eternity. -------------------------------------------------- that is why he did not lower the standards nor create an imperfect man. Adam and Eve chose to bring sin into their lives not God. They chose to cover God's perfect creation with imperfection in the form of sin not God. I don’t follow -------------------------------------------------- What I'm saying is basically without Christ, it is impossible to please God. Deeds have nothing to do with it as far as salvation is concerned. How can I, as imperfect as i am, expect to be near God, who is totally perfect and cannot be surrounded with imperfection(sin). the only way I could hope to do that is by accepting someone's else's perfection in my place. the only one who can forgive sin is one who has no sin. If I'm stuck up to my neck in mud how can I expect you, who is also up to your neck in mud, to help me get out when you cannot even help your own self. it would take someone who is NOT stuck, nor has no hope of ever being stuck. the mud=sin and the one who is not stuck=Christ. I'm not being a smart butt, I'm just trying to find the easiest way of explaining it to you is all I'm trying to do.
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        Weydon
        May 4, 2006
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        "Even if you say God says when your good enough, then show me his measuring stick? When you say good, just how good is good?" I hope you're not blaming me for God's absence in clear direction on how to be good. Personally I feel He would be a benevolent, understanding being with varying degrees of understanding morality. I think you know full well what it means to be a good person overall, including the fact that is complicated and even scumbags can sometimes be good people. "that is why he did not lower the standards nor create an imperfect man. " ?!?!?! "Adam and Eve chose to bring sin into their lives not God. They chose to cover God’s perfect creation with imperfection in the form of sin not God." God chose to create a race beings that are very weak and misguided. Even within our own relgion the rules change dramatically. We can marry multiple partners, then we can't. We can't eat meat, then we can. Mass has to be said in Latin, then it doesn't matter. Unbaptized babies go to hell...then limbo...then heaven. We have no idea what we are talking about. In order to be a responsible creator, God has 2 choices: Lower the requirements to achieving eternal paradise to human levels, or quit making so many imperfect people that will be forever damned. Otherwise He doesn't care about us. "What I’m saying is basically without Christ, it is impossible to please God" So people raised in other religions or converts or agnostics or atheists, who are good people, are screwed? God is mean. "Deeds have nothing to do with it as far as salvation is concerned." Well, then at least maybe you're saying that morality is a human achievement for a greater good, rather than "I'd better do this thing or I'm gonna get in trouble when I die!" "to help me get out when you cannot even help your own self. it would take someone who is NOT stuck, nor has no hope of ever being stuck" Then it could be God. And, considering he made every single human being incapable of being anywhere close to being perfect and therefore drowning in mud, it is up to Him to pull people out regardless of what typically their parents raised them to believe, or whatever revelations they came through in life about religion.
  • slder4crst
    May 4, 2006
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    well i believe your right when it's not needed for salvation, but baptism in general was not ment to BE a show, it was TO show that you are proud to be a follower of christ, not to say "oh look at me i'm a big hot shot saved christian", it's ment to be an act of humility tourds God. Seconaly what standerds are you talking about? our standerds of salvation or Gods? to say that it is iresponcible of him to make imperfect people compared to a perfect God might sound rather unfair BUT there is one thing that we cant argue with is the fact that WE are given choices. Third if you trulely submit to christ and say you need him it's like saying ok i'm willing to read and FOLLOW directions for a game instead of trying to cheat all the time. Christ doesent move your arms for you he shows you where to move them, and thus it's your choice as a follower of christ to do so.
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      Weydon
      May 4, 2006
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      It doesn't matter what it was meant to be. It's what it is now. "BUT there is one thing that we cant argue with is the fact that WE are given choices" Yeah, but according to Energizer these choices don't matter because whatever choices we make towards or against sin will never be enough to get into Heaven. Therefore, it was irresponsible of God to make people who will never be able to get themselves out of damnantion due to just how great His hometown is. "Third if you trulely submit to christ and say you need him it’s like saying ok i’m willing to read and FOLLOW directions for a game instead of trying to cheat all the time" It's entirely possible to not believe in Christ and still do good things rather than "cheating all the time". "Christ doesent move your arms for you he shows you where to move them, and thus it’s your choice as a follower of christ to do so." That's kind of like saying "John doesn't MAKE you do things. He just holds a gun to your head and says he'll shoot you unless you do these things. The choice is yours. It's all you." We should be good people because we're striving to do what is right. Not because we're afraid of getting in trouble.
  • slder4crst
    May 4, 2006
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  • slder4crst
    May 5, 2006
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    “It doesn’t matter what it was meant to be. It’s what it is now.” What are you saying? That just because baptism is being put out of context it shouldn’t be done at all? Why not set the example of what it should represent? Instead of pointing fingers and say there’s no point in it anymore. God calls us to be examples not finger pointers. “according to Energizer these choices don’t matter because whatever choices we make towards or against sin will never be enough to get into Heaven.” again I’m asking you based on who’s standards God’s or yours? no ones greater than the creator, it’s like saying that it is unfair to give free will, and it’s your fee will that made that statement. “It’s entirely possible to not believe in Christ and still do good things rather than “cheating all the time”. Who are you doing the good things for, if not for God than for whom? Yourself? If that’s the case you’re putting your own desires ahead of Gods. “That’s kind of like saying “John doesn’t MAKE you do things. He just holds a gun to your head and says he’ll shoot you unless you do these things. The choice is yours. It’s all you.” We should be good people because we’re striving to do what is right. Not because we’re afraid of getting in trouble.” Well number one God isn’t holding a gun to your head and saying you’re going to die if you don’t accept him, he’s holding a choice no more different than choosing weather or not to take medication, or to jump on a trampoline from a fire. God isn’t threatening you; he’s saying chose heaven or chose hell. And personally I think it’s rather fair and simple
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    Weydon
    May 5, 2006
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    "What are you saying? That just because baptism is being put out of context it shouldn’t be done at all? Why not set the example of what it should represent? Instead of pointing fingers and say there’s no point in it anymore" For traditional reasons you can I guess. But I can lick my thumb and make the sign of the cross and say "I believe" in privacy, and it will have the same affect. Same as marriage. We can share rings and sign a paper, or we can share bracelets and sign a paper, or you can bury acorns in secret and live together for and be loyal for all your lives. It means nothing. Your love and devotion is the same, you just did a little ritual about it all. "again I’m asking you based on who’s standards God’s or yours?" Humanity's standard of being scum. It's not our fault, we were made this way. Maybe scum doesn't deserve to be in paradise, but then God shouldn't have made an entire race of people that can never be worthy of being saved. "no ones greater than the creator, it’s like saying that it is unfair to give free will, and it’s your fee will that made that statement" So what? "Who are you doing the good things for, if not for God than for whom? Yourself? If that’s the case you’re putting your own desires ahead of Gods." Everything anyone has ever done, aside from accidents, has been for themselves. "Well number one God isn’t holding a gun to your head and saying you’re going to die if you don’t accept him" No, he's holding hell over us and saying we're going to burn for all eternity if we don't. If anything, the guy with the gun is being nicer. "he’s holding a choice no more different than choosing weather or not to take medication, or to jump on a trampoline from a fire" But HE gave us the disease, HE set the fire. And then medication and trampoline aren't just there, to say "Haha, no hard feelings!", the medication and trampoline are "Do my bidding or perish". This is a God I refuse to believe in. My God is benevolent and possesses REASON behind His works. "And personally I think it’s rather fair and simple" I think you're just sucking up so you can get to heaven rather than sympathizing with your fellow, imperfect man. None of us deserve eternal happiness, and none of us ever will. Because of how we were made. Therefore, God's standards for allowing people to NOT be damned HAS to be lowered to a human level of simply being a good person.
  • • slder4crst
      July 23, 2006
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      It’s been a while since I’ve answered this one but, I’m not going to leave it in the dark.---------- "For traditional reasons you can I guess. But I can lick my thumb and make the sign of the cross and say “I believe” in privacy, and it will have the same affect. Same as marriage. We can share rings and sign a paper, or we can share bracelets and sign a paper, or you can bury acorns in secret and live together for and be loyal for all your lives. It means nothing. Your love and devotion is the same, you just did a little ritual about it all."------------well if that’s all you consider baptism to be, than go on and believe that, even though that’s your interpretation of baptism, it does not mean your interpretation is true. Biblically God commanded us to be baptized in an act of obedience to him in representing your commitment and love to him. Look it up!---------- "Humanity’s standard of being scum. It’s not our fault, we were made this way. Maybe scum doesn’t deserve to be in paradise, but then God shouldn’t have made an entire race of people that can never be worthy of being saved."----------since it's really not our standards that matter, it's really easy to say that, when we are the individuals who need saving. and it's not like we didn’t have the opportunity to be perfect either, we just blew it.---------"Everything anyone has ever done, aside from accidents, has been for themselves"--------- so are you saying that that justifies anything or are you comparing yourself to everyone else? Because humans standards of justification are not very high. (That is compared to God).----------- , "he’s holding hell over us and saying we’re going to burn for all eternity if we don’t. If anything, the guy with the gun is being nicer."--------- well personally it sounds like you don’t believe that we deserve hell, and if that’s the case I can understand, but again I’m going to pound down on the standards by which we live, if God is the standard, and we as humanity don’t live by those standards we really don’t have any ground to stand on. I’m not going to drink a glass of water with motor oil in it, not because I’m picky but because it's not good for me, just like gods not going except sinful people into heaven because he cannot live with sin.---------"But HE gave us the disease, HE set the fire. And then medication and trampoline aren’t just there, to say “Haha, no hard feelings!”, the medication and trampoline are “Do my bidding or perish”. This is a God I refuse to believe in. My God is benevolent and possesses REASON behind His works."-------- this,my friend is where we split paths. I like to know why you think God did anything to wreck our lives, God didn’t make the fire, man did in there own arrogance,stupidity and pride. God no more made hell, than garbage made flies, hell is not a place God made it's a place of complete separation from God, if you think its hell on earth, an eternity without God is just little worse. So in essence if it's a reasonable God you want, the God I believe has strange reasoning to try and save people who spit in his face.-----------"I think you’re just sucking up so you can get to heaven rather than sympathizing with your fellow, imperfect man. None of us deserve eternal happiness, and none of us ever will. Because of how we were made. Therefore, God’s standards for allowing people to NOT be damned HAS to be lowered to a human level of simply being a good person." --------- I no more suck up to God than I suck up to authorities for driving the speed limit. And no amount of sucking up to God can get me into heaven, God sees more than our works; he sees our motives, intentions and desires. Why should I sympathies with people if people are not worthy of sympathy, forgiveness, or even being saved, the only reason I do is because God was willing to do all that for me when I didn’t deserve it, and has commanded me to do the same. And in my love for Christ I do, and will continue to do. Even though I’m not perfect nor will ever be perfect. I will continue to follow him.
    • • 
        Weydon
        August 25, 2006
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        *Biblically God commanded us to be baptized in an act of obedience to him in representing your commitment and love to him. Look it up* Biblically God killed every firstborn son in Egypt. Killing innocents does in fact go hand in hand with the ruthless being you're worshipping, I'll give you that. I prefer to believe in a Benevolent Father. *since it’s really not our standards* UGH. I'm not saying the standards we see. I'm saying WE ARE SCUM. By universal standards, humanity is scum. *and it’s not like we didn’t have the opportunity to be perfect either, we just blew it* I DIDN'T BLOW ANYTHING. Don't pin the sins of two hypothetical beings in the past on me. (Don't you think it's odd the the all-knowing father had to do trial and error before he realized: "OH! Adam's lonely so maybe I'll make another human. Out of his ribs. And it'll be a girl.") *so are you saying that that justifies anything or are you comparing yourself to everyone else?* I'm saying you shouldn't act so outraged when I say I'm being good "for myself" instead of your saintly being good "for God". There's no such thing as doing an action that wasn't the most appealing choice for you at that moment in time. If it's a sacrifice or being bullied, you did it because the alternative was worse. Selfishness is ALWAYS happening in every single person in every single moment. It's exploiting this selfishness where you start harming and manipulating others that's bad. Adhering to the bully is understandable, but when He asks you to do thing that are morally wrong it is important to stand by your beliefs and choose the sacrifice. *if God is the standard, and we as humanity don’t live by those standards we really don’t have any ground to stand on* I understand that. I'm saying the standards are awfully high and unfair. Someone was raised in another religion? DOOMED. I don't think so. *. I like to know why you think God did anything to wreck our lives* Diseases. Earthquakes. Mudslides. Deformities. Hurricanes. Drought. Famine. Tornadoes. Maybe it'd be easier to just say: every horrible thing that isn't caused by free will? *God didn’t make the fire, man did in there own arrogance,stupidity and pride* I think you're confusing the Bible with Greek mythology now. Either way, God would have preferred us to never grasp fire???? And you do realize fires exist WITHOUT man's help at times right? *s, hell is not a place God made* I thought you "by-the-book-or-nothing" guys believed God made everything? *if you think its hell on earth, an eternity without God is just little worse.* This forever? Not phenomenal, but nothing so terrible either! I'd be uplifted it didn't mean that people that weren't baptized were in the same boat as rapists. *So in essence if it’s a reasonable God you want, the God I believe has strange reasoning to try and save people who spit in his face.* That mad 0 sense. My point was that God has reasoning behind His actions, therefore the things I say are not bad and I am in fact defending His benevolence. Then you say "Yeah, and He has reasoning to allow you to spit in His face!" *I no more suck up to God than I suck up to authorities for driving the speed limit* Drive slowly BECAUSE it saves lives as well as helps regulate rising gas prices...Listen to God BECAUSE HE SAID SO!!! BURN OTHERWISE!!!! BURN!!! See the difference? One has reasoning. One is insane. If given a REASON, I'd very likely smack my forehead and my cheeks would be rosey with embarassment. Without one, I'm left to assume there IS NO REASON. I don't do things without reason, and certainly neither does the all-knowing creator of all things. *God sees more than our works; he sees our motives, intentions and desires.* Exactly. He sees you're being good in order to get to heaven. He's sees I'm being good for the sake of being good, and also figuring being a good person gets you into heaven. We're both self-serving. I'm just not claiming other people are damned for not splashing water on their foreheads. *Why should I sympathies with people if people are not worthy of sympathy, forgiveness, or even being saved, the only reason I do is because God was willing to do all that for me when I didn’t deserve it, and has commanded me to do the same* NOOOOOO. You're not talking about saving people. You're talking about converting them. I'M talking about saving them. I'm saying we either accept the fact that everyone is worthy of God's love, regardless of being born a Hindu or Buddhist or what...or if that's not the case, we make a plea for it. These are good people and they can't possibly all be converted anymore than we can. I will not leave the ones I love because A DIFFERENT RELIGION.
  • crosscountry07
    July 14, 2006
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    amen!

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