There are 10 choices, 10 votes for cosmosis' debate

Heavenly Paradox

ok, so many christians believe that the reason that people sin is because we have free will to do what we want and that we often "choose" to not follow god. BUT at the same time you believe that in heaven, sin isn't possible...so if that is the case then wouldn't that mean that people in heaven have no free will? if sin is only possible with free will and if there is no sin in heaven, then there can't be any free will there...

so one can come to either of two conclusions

1)once you get to heaven your free will is taken away from you

or

2)that it IS possible to have free will and never do anything "sinful". that normal everyday people can be "perfectly good", which is the case of what happens in heaven.

if you conclude choice one, then how fun could heaven possibly be? and if you conclude choice two, then that undermines the whole message of christianity that humans need a god-like savior to pay for their sins. since christianity teaches that no one can not sin.

either way you go, christianity inflicts a big blow onto itself.

so, can any one on this site find a way out of this "loophole"? or are these the only options?

note-this debate is based on the views of what christians believe so other religions may have different views where this concept doesn't really apply.


  • Yeah

    I never really liked that idea myself. Me and my friend used to joke that we'd rather go to purgatory, which is where we were more likely to end up anyway lol.

    But in actuality I like to believe Heaven is just an AWESOME place. Sin would be less likely as the need to steal would be lessened (and even if something was stolen as a joke, you could like wish up another one !!!), murder is impossible, violence would likely be impossible, rape impossible, yatta yatta yatta.

    You just have an awesome time with lots of cool stuff. BUT you could still be rude, lie, argue, etc. Personally I wouldn't be happy without those things going on anyway lol.

    Voted for by Weydon.
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  • from what little I've read...

    Heaven is beyond fun, which is to say that it really isn't fun at all. Dante describes a "multifoliate rose," but people don't do much in it. Rumi talks about how in heaven, no one talks because there's nothing to talk about when everyone is in close contact with God's infinite wisdom.

    Voted for by Auxiliar.
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  • not a problem

    Neither of your conclusions fit as i see thing. Yes, it is true that God gave us free will so that we might FREELY choose Him but once we are in Heaven it is not taken from us, if anything we give it over to Him. In Heaven, we will spend a glorious eternity praising Him who is our Lord. Such is His love for us and our love for Him. I know there are days that I wish He would just take my free will so I would stop causing others pain.

    Voted for by Random Angel.
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  • When you talk about deep subjects, you have to think deep

    Heaven could be fun if your free will was taken off you. To put it cynically, it's called 'brain washing'.

    Voted for by TeChNoWC.
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  • WELCOME TO HEAVEN: free will does not apply

    First of all conclusion #2 is crappy because it attempts to compare "every day people" with beings or spirits in an after-life (heaven) we are not the same as spirits because we have bodies and flesh that fuel are wants and desires.

    Conclusion #1 is crappy because you have no knowledge about what is required to "have fun" in heaven. Thus we can not be clear if free will is required to have fun in heaven.

    YOU CAN NOT FORM A CONCLUSION ABOUT THE AFTER LIFE BASED ON YOUR KNOWLEDGE OF LIFE, THEY ARE CLEARLY NOT THE SAME THING!!!!

    what makes you think that you would need free will in heaven. we won't be "humans" with bodies, we will be spirits in heaven, our bodies will not be there so the there will be no desires to fulfill or any will of the flesh and no reason to want. We are talking about having free will in a place were there is not "life" (i.e. the after-life)the same rules may not apply

    Voted for by exquisite mind.
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  • As I see it

    Certainly, in heaven there is free will. Elsewise Lucifer would not have been able to sin (along with 1/3 of the angels). We will not sin in heaven because by the time we get there we will have seen the destruction it causes and we will not want to (Satan won't be around to influence anyone). God will give us the strength to remain sinless. As it says in the bible, the creation (all of the universe) waits for the revealing of the sons of God. Why? Because that will be what we do. The renewing of the entire universe (that was left subject to decay because of Satan's failure). God's work. Can you imagine doing work that you absolutely love? Never getting tired? Everyone working together the reach the same goals? No competition, no subtrifuge? Always busy? Amazing, I can't wait. Last thought: God's headquarters will be on Earth. The first job will be to renew the Earth and then on to the cosmos. Yeow.

    Voted for by mudgod.
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  • Simple answer

    Why does the majority of the population of humanity refrain themselves from such things as murder and rape? Because we see its erronous ways and CHOOSE not to commit such vile acts. When we get to heaven, we will see the erronous ways of sin and CHOOSE not commit such vile acts. However, yes, as we are imperfect beings, this is why the renewing of our minds and submitting our lives to Christ allows us to recieve these revelations, and empowers us with the strength to act upon such.

    Voted for by TeChNoWC.
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  • I happen to know the answer.

    The only reason your free will chooses to sin, is because Satan is there tempting and proding all the time. Satan has no place in heaven. There is no one there to persuade you to sin. In heaven there is God, and other people who, while on earth, chose to trust the savior Jesus with all their heart. That was a choice of the soul, which is connected to the sinful body while you live. When you die, you are free from the temptations of living on earth, and Satan has no say in what happens. Do you really think a perfect God is going to let you sin in his presence? No. He's there to keep you safe when you die. It is the perfect place and you are still sinfull by free will.

    Voted for by KimmyKat.
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  • HELL

    In adition to the main concept of this string, the concept of hell is also fundamentally flawed. Many believe that you don't spend eternity in hell but you do get tortured for a long time and if you were mostly good then you get rescued after a while after learning the error of their sinfull ways. This makes no sense because quite often after brutal torture and abuse, one comes out of the experience not as a better person, but as either a catatonic shell, or a monsterous serial killer or mass murderer. Example: Hitler was abused as a child and even beaten into a week long coma by his father. Look what he turned into. So anyone who comes out as one of those people couldn't be brought to heaven. Anyone else who "learn's their lesson" is just being forced to accept god and therefor has no free will and honestly could not possibly not want revenge.

    Voted for by jackgillespie.
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  • pergatory duhhhh...

    no paradox at all. in order to get to heaven you kinda have to go through purgatory... you know the place where they make you soul pure and clean again so that you are now perfect. so in the end you dont cummit sin because you are now perfect... second according to everything it hurts like heck... third heaven is only the place with the real, true, and physical presence of GOD nothing else can we truely know about. its were GOD is and satan is not. and in order to get there you have to be perfect. ofcourse you only believe in this if your christian, i dont know of any others that do... yet.

    Voted for by pnktrky.
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