A man works hard all his life to soport his family and still maniges to still go to cherch every sunday to confess his sins.he believed that all his hard work would payoff one day. he was compleatly faithful bacause he believed everything happend for a reason. he went to work everyday, even on sunday after cherch. on his 72 birthday, his wife and 4 kids died in a car crash. he tryed to keep living his life and he still worked and still went to cherch. because he still believed it would pay off 6 years later he died and god spoke to him. He said "i am sorry my son, but you lived without truly knowing my religion and for that you must go to hell." is this fare?
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Fairness as a Universal set by the Deity33% Voted for by TeChNoWC, Dwn, BT37.
'Fairness' is subject to your own deliberations and subjective inferences, even if as a collective (humankind). If their is such thing as a universal system of fairness, then a higher being is involved, and, assuming that this same higher being who set the notion of fairness in place is the one that judges the man, then, objectively, as objectivity would only be set by the deity and not man's subjective nature, has in fact been treated fairly.
Unfortunately, one cannot be treated unfairly by God (as in, Highest of Authorities) as such a God sets and created the concept of fairness in itself.
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Nope22% Voted for by Dwn, Energizer Bunny.
Not only is it not fair, its not scriptural. Further, God is not , nor does he have or advocate religion. He is a being, exactly as he is, and understanding how and who he is ,is no more a religion than understanding how and who you are, would be.
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Energizer how are you agreeing with this? You've said many times that unless you accept Christ as your personal savior, you are not getting into Heaven. *He said "i am sorry my son, but you lived without truly knowing my religion and for that you must go to hell."* That's basically what this entire debate is to be focused on. That even if you were a decent guy, a decent guy that worshipped God always (even in the face of tragedy), it wouldn't matter if you didn't "TRULY" understand--i.e. different practices and beliefs, such as Christ. Furthermore, I wouldn't be surprised if Dwn was alluding to something more along the lines of predestination. Correct me if I'm wrong Dwn, but I believe you prescribe to the notion that even before we are born it is already decided who is to be saved and who is damned regardless of what we do--while you, Energizer, believe anyone can get into Heaven as long as they accept Christ as their savior and ask for His endless mercy.
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No, Weydon, your not wrong in that I am a primative baptist, and we do subscribe to the doctrin of predestination, However, that was not at issue in this case. I have been falsly accused of being calvanist, we do not adhere to calvanism althought to the outsider we do seem to have a lot in common with them. And I might add, I am not an absoluter, I believe you make the chioce to live in the kindom of heaven on this earth in this time or you dont, the choice is yours. There is more than one kind of heaven, and certainly more than one kind of hell. Further, what religion, including my own that you subscribe to cannot change the true nature of God, he is not Catholic, muslem, baptist, penecostal, church of Christ, ...the list goes on utill all religions have been named, including primative baptst...He is God, The great I am. No one can know him completely except himself and Jesus.Thats it. Man cannot make God into what he would have him be, nor can he make him conform to his understanding of who he might be (although that is what most religions have attempted to do) He is God and he has determined who and how he is.
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Of course notVoted for by Weydon.
So that's why there are either 2 possibilities:
1. God is a benevolent being that won't care so much about your religion as long as it is not harmful.
2. God is very self-involved and will punish you for all eternity if you don't pick the exact correct religion. And if that religion wasn't invented until it was formed as a new sect? Everyone born prior is screwed as well, but it's their own fault for not finding out the TRUE religion on their own.
I like to believe in the first choice. If I'm wrong, then I spent my life NOT worshipping an unfair bully.
Most outspoken Christians prefer to grab onto their own sect for dear life and hope they're right at the end.
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That was fairly absent minded. I do see your reason, however, picking the right 'religion' as one calls it may not be so much picking the right rituals to follow, but picking a path that opens the doorway to love, and accepting something of a Higher, more transcending relationship. In other words, if one is to follow the right ideals, it is not necessarily the ideals that are followed that become the saving grace, but what the ideals do in a man. A goodly man may mean well, but once they start down the path of destruction, they never reach the light at the end of the tunnel, because the once goodly man now ceases to exist. I'm not going to parade this is truth, but just one my outlooks.
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I don't understand what you're going for exactly. Is the path of destruction what happens if the goodly man does not pick some sort of religion or something that encourages them to keep it up? Or is that what happens after this goodly man decides on one religion, and it turns out it's the wrong religion? *but picking a path that opens the doorway to love, and accepting something of a Higher, more transcending relationship. In other words, if one is to follow the right ideals, it is not necessarily the ideals that are followed that become the saving grace, but what the ideals do in a man.* That's basically what I was saying, and also what many Christians don't prescribe too. Supposedly, without believing in Christ, there's 0 chance of getting into Heaven no matter how goodly a man you were in a different religion. I feel not only is that nonsense, but it's cruel.
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*"I don’t understand what you’re going for exactly. Is the path of destruction what happens if the goodly man does not pick some sort of religion or something that encourages them to keep it up? Or is that what happens after this goodly man decides on one religion, and it turns out it’s the wrong religion?"* No. Let's not use the word religion, particularly because of the connotations involved. Let's use the word 'heartfelt decision'. I've always hated theology, but I will try and convey my understanding as best as possible. I do in fact hold to your benevolence theory, as I myself found it very hard to believe that a benevolent God would condemn people to hell, and I'm still inclined to believe that they simply rest in Sheol (the grave; nothingness basically) for eternity, or something like that. But, I oppose you in that I shall follow God in whatever His choosing. Simply because I follow the creator of concepts, and not concepts themselves. So, I consider any who make a heartfelt decision to follow a benevolent God, but not just a benevolent God of their choosing, but (inside), the God of which is identified with in relation to the proper, truthful God (not by traditions, regulations and rules, but by relationship). This means christians, muslims, jews, bahai, buddhists maybe even; but the idea is that they accept christ, not through the mind (rationalise it) but through the heart, which indicates further actions taken. However, some who claim to follow benevolent beings whose rationalisations are in the form of some sort of deceptive demonic power, like say, a white witch or something, could start off on on the road of goodness, and then eventually become consumed by the concept in itself, and ending up rather malevolent, even though they don't realise until the end. This happens with all religions though, too. Like the Pharisees in the Bible, who were of Godly religion, they too succumbed to the ways of evil by incorrectly percieving the path they followed, and not enabling themselves to be in relation with God, but rather to try the more malevolent approach. In other words Weydon, you personally, from what I have observed of your persona, as long as you keep an open mind and try not to fall astray of what God may call you to (not by tradition, but by heartfelt relationship) then you are going to heaven, buddy. And in my eyes, if you died right now, you would be seated with the Father in paradise. That's my opinion, anyway. *"That’s basically what I was saying, and also what many Christians don’t prescribe too. Supposedly, without believing in Christ, there’s 0 chance of getting into Heaven no matter how goodly a man you were in a different religion. I feel not only is that nonsense, but it’s cruel."* I do to. However, I do in fact believe in the God presented to us in the Old Testament, and I think that without christ's sacrifice, God would have wiped us out for being the cursed demons we had become. Bit like your hatred towards pedophiles. Just imagine, a whole race of menacing pedophiles, if not even by action but by heart (unfortunately yes, God has the ability and right to incite punishment due to the imminence of pre-crime, as He is timeless), and so therefore it was by His grace that such people were saved (and yes Weydon, also people from the past. All those people that were released from Sheol through the power of Christ and the grace attoned to them, after His death on the cross). I realise some christians are still mirror images of the religious Pharisees who wished to see Jesus crucified for His "irreligious notions", however, I am not one of these (or at least I hope not to be).
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*But, I oppose you in that I shall follow God in whatever His choosing. Simply because I follow the creator of concepts, and not concepts themselves.* Where our paths differ it seems. Thankfully, the majority of what the Creator is assumed to have said isn't terribly awful. *And in my eyes, if you died right now, you would be seated with the Father in paradise. That’s my opinion, anyway.* I sure hope so. Funny thing, I probably feel the same about you, including the part where you feel my outlook is skewwed but well-meaning. *I do to. However, I do in fact believe in the God presented to us in the Old Testament, and I think that without christ’s sacrifice...* I don't think people were as awful as Christians teachings lead us to believe. Jesus afterall was Jewish and wished to maintain Judaism, while tweaking some harsher aspects and maintain a somewhat different relationship with God. He loved the people of His time, and after His coming not much about the people themselves actually changed. For a while we had some perhaps more lenient ideas on once strict rules and fairer treatment of women and overall stress on peace and helping one another. Once Christianity became mainstream though we quickly delved back into sexism, elitism, wars in His name, and corruption. We are largely the same people. Just look at the Jews of today. They follow the same Torah with no additions, still awaiting their Messiah. Changes have come of course, but they are not malicious people. In fact, they tend to have a less "We're gonna scare you into doing what we think!!" mentality than many Christians, in spite of most of God's vengence being within the Old Testement.
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*"I sure hope so. Funny thing, I probably feel the same about you, including the part where you feel my outlook is skewwed but well-meaning."* Yes. And I think we will find that all people have some sort of imperfection in their tendencies. It's just what comes with the job, being human and all. *"Where our paths differ it seems. Thankfully, the majority of what the Creator is assumed to have said isn’t terribly awful."* Errr, the Old Testament was pretty psycho, as was Jesus' treatment of the Pharisees. The Pharisees were bastards but Jesus was fairly 'frighteningly straight' with them. *"I don’t think people were as awful as Christians teachings lead us to believe. Jesus afterall was Jewish and wished to maintain Judaism, while tweaking some harsher aspects and maintain a somewhat different relationship with God. He loved the people of His time, and after His coming not much about the people themselves actually changed. For a while we had some perhaps more lenient ideas on once strict rules and fairer treatment of women and overall stress on peace and helping one another. Once Christianity became mainstream though we quickly delved back into sexism, elitism, wars in His name, and corruption. We are largely the same people. Just look at the Jews of today. They follow the same Torah with no additions, still awaiting their Messiah. Changes have come of course, but they are not malicious people. In fact, they tend to have a less “We’re gonna scare you into doing what we think!!” mentality than many Christians, in spite of most of God’s vengence being within the Old Testement."* If we are deluded now, imagine how deluded they were back then. They were without such teachings as forgiveness to individuals (only God gave it when graceful), and they had little notion of a 'caring' society. Their was some individual in Greece that was said to have, not rivalled Jesus, but taught similar, although basic teachings. He was the first to ever present such notions, that we are aware of, and Jesus being the first to truly establish and ammend them. We still abide by the teachings today, whether you be atheist or theist (although, atheist's tend to become subject to their own malicious teachings, and with my experience with some of them, I am inclined to believe they truly will go to sleep and never wake up).
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*If we are deluded now, imagine how deluded they were back then. They were without such teachings as forgiveness to individuals (only God gave it when graceful), and they had little notion of a ‘caring’ society. Their was some individual in Greece that was said to have, not rivalled Jesus, but taught similar, although basic teachings. He was the first to ever present such notions, that we are aware of, and Jesus being the first to truly establish and ammend them.* If you remember his name, let me know, sounds interesting. But I refuse to believe everything was absolutely barbaric before Jesus came along. All over the world, conditions were different but there was morality and order. Cultural difference may have meant different sexism and harsher punishments, but not vampiric pedophiles running around like lunatics until Jesus and some other guy said "Hey! Be nice!". *although, atheist’s tend to become subject to their own malicious teachings, and with my experience with some of them, I am inclined to believe they truly will go to sleep and never wake up.* Which malicious teachings are those? I don't think all atheists prescribe to any one set of beliefs anyway. The only prerequisite is not believing in God.
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*"If you remember his name, let me know, sounds interesting. But I refuse to believe everything was absolutely barbaric before Jesus came along. All over the world, conditions were different but there was morality and order. Cultural difference may have meant different sexism and harsher punishments, but not vampiric pedophiles running around like lunatics until Jesus and some other guy said “Hey! Be nice!”."* Greek priests having sex with animals and killing them to appease the gods, Pharisees issuing that children be stoned for backchatting their parents or working on the Sabbath, crucifixion as an active form of punishment for would be criminals, the doctrine of eye for an eye still prevalent in society (whether instigated by God or not) - these is just a very brief overview of such chaotic acts that ensued before such doctrines were introduced. I understand that during the Dark Ages things got pretty vile as well, even under such a banner as the Bible itself - however this just stands as a testimony to the horrid of religiousity. I realise it probably isn't as black and white as 'people were all evil, now their all good', as the world still isn't perfect. But I do believe that Jesus' sacrifice played an active role in our ability to see his doctrines, coupled with his selflessness and spiritual atonement, such that it allows individuals to come before a more benevolent, relational God, than become consumed in the religiousness, confusion and ultimately, 'wrongful ethical reasoning' that you posed earlier. *"Which malicious teachings are those? I don’t think all atheists prescribe to any one set of beliefs anyway. The only prerequisite is not believing in God."* Again, try not to look at it as though it is legalistic; as though atheism gives a free ticket to the underworld. Atheist's with exceptions, tend to be rather bound , ignorant, and theist hating. I realise I am generalising, but this comes only from experience. It is only my personal convictions. Atheists are either driven by a hate of religion, which in turn leads to pushing them away from relation with God, via incorrect reasoning eg 'I hate this stupid religion. It's false, and they are hypocritical. So stuff it. And not just them, stuff God. If they are wrong then their musn't be a 'sky daddy', so I'm not gonna even try and have relation with any such false beings.' or, they may be driven by an ignorant strain of intellectualism, in which they hold more to their own narrow minded philosophical or scientific observations and reasoning, and, making false assumptions, come to the conclusion that they 'know' God does not exist. They therefore abandon Him, and even become inclined to tell you that they know for sure that they aren't going to heaven and hell, and they embrace non-existence after death. Would God be unjust in fulfilling their wishes? Those that deny God die, and don't wake up; but I do still hope that God can somehow alleviate the problem, and expound some sort of mercy towards them. But the request is evident. Many also get to the point where they are 'anti-religious'. Such a banner is not just pertaining to the desire for the destruction of all religion, but also, destruction of relation with God, and such people try to enforce such destruction on others. These are the sort that are intentionally trying to taint others, and draw them into their insidious plans. These are the sort of people that I hate, as much as your hate for paedophiles, and if not more so. They are destructive, spiteful, evil bastards, and, despite my overwhelming urge to see people enter the kingdom of God no matter what their condition may be, and my mercy in such to allow any entry into such a kingdom, these people are out to stop others from getting there. I always did like posing this question to believers: If you had to kill either a sinner or a saint, ie, the sinner is destined for hell, and the saint destined for heaven, wouldn't you spare the sinner, and kill the saint? As then, we have a guaranteed assurance of one man going to heaven, and a chance that the sinner will have time to reconcile with God, and then both men go to heaven. So, observantly, if a sinner is killed, it is far more a loss than the death of a saint. However, one could argue in reply: The saint is enabled to spread such sainthood to others, and therefore has exponential influence, and a greater chance of being an expotential influence in leading people to salvation than the sinner, so that he could lead a handful of people to salvation that would otherwise go to hell. So, to kill the saint, you would in fact be killing multiple sinners. The reason I wished to pose this thought experiment was so that I could show my inclination as to why I would see such anti-religious atheist's as threatening indeed; these people in fact have the reverse effect, in that they actually spread taint, in that they, at least try to anyway, lead people 'away' from relation with God, and therefore creating exponential amounts of people of the same creed, with the same hatred of God, and desires prominent with being seperate from any such experiences with God. If it were not for christ and His ability to overcome such doctrines so as to instill revelation and bring back these people from the brink of destruction, as well as strengthening those that desire relation with Him (identified as christ by label or not), then these people are not only lost causes, but also inducive of more lost causes. Thank God that He has given us such portions of grace that He has. I shall surely wish to use weapons against these people, but thankfully, God has given me a seperate weapon from those that one would be inclined to use - He has given me prayer, and such doctrines that do indeed bring people back from the brink of destruction, and so therefore, I hope to in fact use such weapons in this spiritual war of favour. 'To show love to your enemies is to pour heaped coals on their heads'. Contradictory as such a verse may seem at first glance, the wisdom in such words is in fact, astounding.
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You can't merely discount the Dark Ages and Spanish Inquisition and Nazis and Klu Klux Klan and slavery and internment camps and societal racism and sexism. As the generations progress, they will look on our more recent indisgressions the same way we look upon ancient Rome, Greece, Asia, even Native Americans. Proud people, morally bound in different degrees. Some sacrificed living animals and even people, but they were ignorant and perhaps foolish and cruel. Just as we were with slaves and Jim Crow laws. Just as, conceivably, 3 or 5 generations from now will look at gay marriage provisions, depending on which way it all swings. Reading a few sentences about the more barbaric practices make it easy to label them as lunatics. But the context is different. We didn't just become sane in the last 30 or 40 years. There was struggle, but people lived within it as they live today. *Atheists* As for the atheists, I have not had such experiences. There are a few bad apples in every bunch, surely. But the most vocal atheists I encounter are the ones who have just become atheists, and while not malicious they are excited/fearful of their revelation and bring it up. Aside from that, odds are you know a good number of atheists that simply never voice their opinions. Why bother? They're not trying to convert people, they have no reason too. If you are to to talk religion to them, or use religion to justify your beliefs, what choice do they have but to counter with their own beliefs on religions? Technically it may be feasible that Buddhists are also atheists. I am not extremely famliar with Buddhism by any means, but from my understanding they don't believe in a god, which technically could meet the criteria. However they likely have certain beliefs which would be defined as supernatural, so perhaps not.
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*"Technically it may be feasible that Buddhists are also atheists."* There are some, I do believe, but only a rare handful. Most hold to some sort of deity from Hindu religion or what not, or some sort of just 'Higher Power', as if it were a type of unconscious being. Others are also agnostic, as it matters not on the nature of such deities, just the principles that Buddha extrapolated.
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where???Voted for by pwincessovfantasy.
"burning love"... where exactly did you get this story from???
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No and YesVoted for by looking4realtruth.
By our standards, no. By God's standards, yes. It all boils down to whether he accepted Christ as his Lord and Savior. Anything else isn't going to get him to heaven.
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noVoted for by allaboutpoetry.
god cannot deni you from eternal peace because you questioned faith.think about it,everyone questions faith at one point so if this were true everyone woud be in hell
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Dwn
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