There are 2 choices, 2 votes for Applehead's debate

Churches

“And whenever you pray, do not be like the hypocrites; for they love to stand and pray in the synagogues and at the street corners, so that they may be seen by others. Truly I tell you, they have received their reward. But whenever you pray, go into your room and shut the door and pray to your Father who is in secret; and your Father who sees in secret will reward you.” (Matthew 6:5-6)

• Men/sheep

  People are drawn to church through fear created by priests and such. It is about ego rather than God, about saving yourself instead of saving others. We are asked to donate to church where does this money go, some of it may go to charity but most will pay for luxuries. Did Jesus advise we treat ourselves to luxuries?

  Voted for by Applehead.

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  • 
    bob2314
    October 12, 2006
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    For obvious reasons I find myself of this opinion more often than I care to admit You must remember that churches do a lot of good too. It depends directly on the heart in question. Remember Jesus praised the widow and her mite.
  • 
    grant
    October 12, 2006
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    Church is about saving others. If they are saving others it puts them in a position of being saviours. Of being good by looking for bad too save and make them good like them. First they surround themselves with good people. The more good people they surround themselves with, like really big churches (the vatican is a collossus), the gooder they think they are. The bigger the amount of these good people in one group will make other more individual people look badder too these good ones. This gives them the eternal task of having so many bad people to save that it gives the idea of saving an impression of being eternal. It makes the job look like it will go on forever. They are not into retirement schemes. To make it seem like their church is more eternal than other ones they need a constant, never ending supply of bad people. The ones they can't save are evil and must be exterminated or sent to hell where they can't bother them again. But of course they are sent to hell because they do bother them. It's quite a conglomerate. I'm sure there is money in it. Well, the vatican and those big modern glass churches are pretty flash. I stood on the inside of the top of the dome in the vatican. Looking down to it's floor the other visitors look like ants. Its quite a monument to insanity.
  • 
    Applehead
    October 12, 2006
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    "Church is about saving others." This may be right But is saving different from helping. The reason I ask is that I see myself as a good person who is willing to help people. Not because I fear God but because I want to stop people suffering I don't like to see people struggle. I want to help so I know they are ok. I feel their pain I suppose. My poin is we can help apart from churches. The church has been corrupted for the benefit of man. Its mere presence as church scares people away. Use them for prayer by all means but they should not contain hierachy of men or women.
  • 
    grant
    October 12, 2006
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    You suppose wrong. You can't feel their pain. That is unfair. That is their pain, not yours. If I was in pain and had someone come over to me and say "i feel your pain" i would tell them to f**k off or get me some powerfull drugs.
  • 
    Applehead
    October 12, 2006
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    Do you not appreciate empathy. Why do you assume I would say to someone “i feel your pain”. No I wouldn't I rather offer them an ear to listen if they need it or a shoulder to lean on etc. I am not about to force my help on anyone. "i would tell them to f**k off or get me some powerfull drugs." Ha Ha I can appreciate this after having kids. If you don't want help fair enough your loss mate.
  • • 
      grant
      October 12, 2006
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      Feeling someone elses pain isn't empathy. Thats vampirism.
    • • 
        Applehead
        October 13, 2006
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        Ha Ha if you say so. Although people suffering in hospital are often grateful for support and understanding. Everyone one has different needs though, you are clearly very happy on your own.
  • 
    Applehead
    October 12, 2006
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    bob, yeah I realise some good is done which is why I mentioned charity but the hipocracy is shocking. People use the church to massage their ego's rather than to actually help society. If people prayed at home and then discussed there thoughts together as we do here they would not feel they have to go to church to exercise their spiritual minds and would not feel undermined by hypocrites in expensive cloths. Again I know not all clergymen are hypocrites but I bet the percentage is in favour of the power hungry and not the truly caring.
  • 
    Kazrith
    October 12, 2006
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    if you want to go to a place where people save others, go to a hospital. personally, i have no uses for a church.
  • • 
      TeChNoWC
      October 14, 2006
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      I'd love to see a hospital 'save' a suicide case, homeless, or the down trodden. There are people that all the psychologists and therapists in the world can't fix independent to faith. Having a faith is considered by such people to be an integral part of recovery, whether natural or supernatural. So, when you said *"if you want to go to a place where people save others, go to a hospital"*, it appeared that you were implying that churches don't save people. Well, they in fact do, even by your own definition (that being well-being, particularly pertaining to conditions that are life threatening, and these include mental, physical and proposed 'spiritual' ailments).
  • 
    Applehead
    October 12, 2006
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    "if you want to go to a place where people save others, go to a hospital. personally, i have no uses for a church." Me niether that is my point,
  • 
    bob2314
    October 12, 2006
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    applehead i'm haveing a membreship drive at my new minimalist church think about it.
  • 
    Applehead
    October 13, 2006
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    bob2314 I think I may need to after reading the negative posts here your spiritual support would chase out the demons trying to crush my sympathetic soul. ;)
  • 
    grant
    October 13, 2006
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    It is just not possible to feel someone elses pain. If one thinks they are it will be their own pain projected onto the situation. For example, A friend is dying and you sense their fear. You "fear for them". But this is not what it is. It will be your fear of death (your own inevitable one) projected onto the situation of the friend. YES, understanding is it, but harder than you may think. Hard because of the fraughtful nature of personal pain projection. It is like the brain's (ego) intention is to feel this pain or fear before it actually needs to in order to get some release from it at the death or recovery of the real patient. This isn't bad, it is just part of the human struggle and human learning curve. We, unfortunately, mostly learn through trauma. It doesn't seem possible to teach understanding and real empathy from a teacher at the front of the class. And, in any case, the "teacher" scenario would only be an institutionalising concept. One which will only produce an institutional solution (like a certificate or letters after one's name etc..). The ego loves institutional success because it is ego that builds institutions. We enter the world through much pain and pain is our teacher. The institutional mind (ego) will do all it can to avoid pain and therefore interrupt the bodies natural pain absorption process. The ego, not the body, wants food that is not good for the body. When the body is in pain due to the ego wanting addictive bad food the ego wants to ignore it by rationalising it (creating institutions for health. Hospitals and their drugs). It is a way for the ego to avoid responsibilty for the pain it creates, but congratulates itself for creating (health and other) institutions. The ego creates disease and then "believes" it is the fault of the disease (an attack from an external source).
  • 
    Applehead
    October 13, 2006
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    "If one thinks they are it will be their own pain projected onto the situation. For example, A friend is dying and you sense their fear. You “fear for them”. But this is not what it is. It will be your fear of death (your own inevitable one) projected onto the situation of the friend." Hhhm if this is the case I must be lying to myself when I feel that I do not fear death. I worry that my children need to be old enough to fend for themselves but I have never feared death as i have always felt a closeness to relatives that have passed. This does not mean I can see or talk to them I just feel they are there. You may say I am telling myself this for reassurance that I won't actually die. If so then I cannot be afraid of death therefore I do feel pain for others because I truly care for them and do not wish to see them suffer. "The ego creates disease and then “believes” it is the fault of the disease (an attack from an external source)." Are you saying we could control disease by the controlling our ego's? "real empathy " Emotional contagion is apparently to identify so much with anothers pain that you actually take that pain on and become subject to the same emotions. Emotional contagion "I feel your pain" Empathy is the ability to recognize, perceive and directly experience and feel the emotion of another. Empathy "I feel your pain" I found the above from wiki they both state the worf "feel" so maybe people do not really understand what it is to empathize. For me empathizing is feeling and feeling is understanding. Once you understand you can help to the best of your ability.
  • 
    grant
    October 14, 2006
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    Thats bullshit. You cant feel the emotions of another any more than you can read other's thoughts. Those emotions will be yours. Not someone elses. To observe oneself and one's own motivations is to start owning one's own feelings (this is what is meant by "know thy self"). Not project them onto others. That is just the ego doing what egos do. Seperating out one's own issues to avoid any self reflection. As far as diseases go, yes disease is the product of ego. Every thing is ego (emphasis on "thing"). Disease is egotistically regarded as a thing. Some-thing seperate and external attacking us. Disease is un-ease. That is it's meaning. It is only the ego that is "ill at ease". People assume ego to mean one who has a high opinion of themselves. That is just another trick of ego to drag anyone who's opinion appears threatening to the egoic comfort of another back down. Your ego appears to be thrashing about during this debate in an attempt to maintain it's conditioned beliefs to stay with what it thinks it knows. Fortunately neither you nor I are our egos. Egos are a product of our conditioning (the human condition). We are not our conditioning. Conditioning is what our societies and cultures try to tell us what we are. It is a way for these cultures to maintain an existance as a cult. It is all egoic stuff and the ego is bullshit. To "know thy self" is to understand the egos motivations without judgement. If one is judging the ego as good and bad this is still the ego. Without judgement is to simply observe the phenomena. ("bullshit" in this context means a lie or illusion). My dictionary's meaning for "empathy" is "to sense and understand someone else's feelings AS IF they were one's own". "As if" is not "Actual". To "sense" is to use our phenomenal senses (hearing, sight). "Understanding" is combining what one sees and hears with what one has experienced or empathetically observed. The dictionary definition does not say "to feel what another is feeling". You can only feel what YOU are feeling. Someone else's pain may only remind you of yours, but it is still yours to resolve or live with (or resolve by learning to live with). You may not wish to "see others suffer" but no amount of wishing will make them not suffer. There will always be sufferers. This we also can learn to live with because it is what it is. The best example for ones that suffer is to see that you dont. If you "suffer for them" then there is no example for them and the "wishing" just continues (because it is your own suffering projected on theirs).
  • 
    Applehead
    October 15, 2006
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    Its not bullshit there have been scans that show the brain responds to anothers pain in the same areas as when you feel pain yourself. It has nothing to do with ego but more survival. If your child is ill but you have no empathy for their pain you are less likely to get help for that child. "To observe oneself and one’s own motivations is to start owning one’s own feelings (this is what is meant by “know thy self”)." It is possible to know yourself and still feel empathy for others. Although knowing yourself comletely is not possible as we are open to change through out our lives. "Your ego appears to be thrashing about during this debate in an attempt to maintain it’s conditioned beliefs to stay with what it thinks it knows." My ego is just fine thanks in fact modesty aside for a minute I am very open to being proved wrong as I do not possess stubborn ego controlled opinions. Your opinions on the other hand seem very fixed. "Conditioning is what our societies and cultures try to tell us what we are." I agree we are all conditioned by our surroundings but this is not always permanent. With help support and understanding or even on their own people can overcome childhood trauma which has conditioned people in all kinds of ways. You said yourself you can go cold turkey after a relationship that you have come to rely on (that you have become conditioned to need). "To “know thy self” is to understand the egos motivations without judgement." This is just an excuse for behaving anyway you like and not taking resposibilty for your actions. In other words its bullshit. "There will always be sufferers" Unfortunately this is probably true. "The best example for ones that suffer is to see that you dont." Ha Ha you are unreal, you keep telling yourself that. "It's ok that I have a warm house with all the food I need and 2 cars because that homeless guy down the road will see me and think oh glory be there's hope for me yet." We can set an example but we should also be prepared to help those less fortunate than ourselves. And if your right about this ego thing maybe you should think more about helping others incase you need end up in that same situation and need to prepare yourself a bit better.
  • • 
      Applehead
      October 15, 2006
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      "It has nothing to do with ego but more survival." I must correct myself ego is involved but empathy is neccessary for survival. Just because ego is involved does not make empathy any less useful for myself or others.
  • 
    Applehead
    October 15, 2006
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    Quote from Ghandi "Be the change you want to see in the world."
  • HEdiedforyou
    October 15, 2006
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    hey well i can say that it does NOT go to luxuries! i'm a pastors kid and yea some of the money goes to us and we're not poor but we don't have that much we have 1 old car and live in a appartment i'm not saying i'm unhappy but just so you know and i don't go to church coz i'm scared i go coz i want to worship God
  • 
    Applehead
    October 15, 2006
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    HEdiedforyou it's good to hear that not all churches take. But it is true that lots of churches do. "i don’t go to church coz i’m scared i go coz i want to worship God" Some people fear God and believe if they do not attend church they will not go to heaven. I would rather talk to God where ever I am and as for worshipping I don't believe God needs to have His ego massaged, I talk about God to encourage others but I don't feel it my place to make people feel like they should worship Him that is their path to choose. I try to live a good life for God, I admit it's not as good as it could be but hey I'm working on it.
  • HEdiedforyou
    October 17, 2006
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    i see your point but in the bible it says that christians shouldnot neglect meeting together so that they can enourage one another. As for worshipping he's the only one anybody should worship all praise is due to him
  • 
    Applehead
    October 17, 2006
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    "As for worshipping he’s the only one anybody should worship all praise is due to him" Absolutely! :) I did not mean to imply I would worship anyone else.
  • 
    TeChNoWC
    October 17, 2006
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    *"as for worshipping I don’t believe God needs to have His ego massaged"* Ha, it is so much more than that. This would only pertain to those that truly are only worshipping God out of fear or out of lack of relations. It would only serve as an ego boost, and wouldn't seem to pose God any other benefit. But God desires relationship, and so does the spirit of man. When man comes into contact with God, the intitial response of the spirit is an internal, deep-seated desire to praise this entity of such loving qualities. Sometimes it takes a leap of faith to initiate such relations, but mainly worshipping God is in response to love and a two way relationship. Like your desire to be intimate with your husband or close to your children, God desires this with us, and so is happy to recieve our worship. Also, a parent asserts authority of their children. God does this also. As we are His children, He knows that the best thing for us is not candy, but a fair smack on the backside, so such realisations can be made, and true wisdom can be obtained, and not fruitless, fleshly craven gifts. God knows that obedience is pivotal in the relationship between God and man, and so worship is a display of our submission to such obedience. It allows for relationship to build, and not be hinder through man's pride and ego. If one is to deny such things, it is a burden (bound), and possibly due to ego in itself. Submission is the laying down of one's life to admit to God that He is obviously of wiser authority and counsel, and a letting go of pride and arrogance, and an embracing of child-like trust, in which one becomes humble, and drawn by the calling of God.
  • 
    Applehead
    October 17, 2006
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    Oh dear If I reread all these posts will I find that I infact not humble but rather egotistical. Even though I believe my intentions to be honest and caring am I simply too big headed to love God. Maybe. Although I do love God and God knows this. I show respect and if you like, worship in my own little ways I do not go to church to sing praise. I will think about why this is.
  • • HEdiedforyou
      October 17, 2006
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      well done!it takes alot of courage and humbleness to admit smg like that and nobody is too nything to love God=) don't forget he loves you!
  • 
    mudgod
    October 17, 2006
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    Why do churches exist? Why so many different doctrines? Christ created and heads His church (singular - one church, one truth). He created the church for a purpose. To do God's work until He returns. That work is in its final phase. The final warning to mankind before the tribulation. (Mat 10:23 But when they persecute you in this city, flee ye into another: for verily I say unto you, Ye shall not have gone over the cities of Israel, till the Son of man be come.) This work of going to the cities of Israel is going on now. Notice, the warning will not have gone to all the cities of Israel before Jesus returns. My guess is that we are looking at 3 to 6 years or less. God commands us to tithe 10% to His church. This money sustains the church and finances the work. Once given, our responsibility ends. It is then in God's hands. A worker is worth His hire. God wants us to be healthy and properous. (3Jo 1:2 Beloved, I wish above all things that thou mayest prosper and be in health, even as thy soul prospereth.) Should a minister (of say about 3000 people) be paid any less than a business man over the same amount of people? Man is to be a good steward of what God allows him to have. Having said that, God is the creator of the universe and as such should have the best of everything needed for His work.
  • 
    Applehead
    October 19, 2006
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    "Should a minister (of say about 3000 people) be paid any less than a business man over the same amount of people? Man is to be a good steward of what God allows him to have. Having said that, God is the creator of the universe and as such should have the best of everything needed for His work." This is an excellent point and I'm glad you brought it to my attention. A reminder that not everyone is twisted in some way is always good. I find it easy to remember the stories of peodophile priests or the vicar that ran off with donated money. There is a lot of good comes from churches and I suppose we cannot guard against all the 'Baddies' because we are not perfect. I used to dream of saving people as a child and often have to remind myself it is not possible to save everyone. "God is the creator of the universe and as such should have the best of everything needed for His work." If your words are anything to go by then I believe God will be pleased with you. The only thing I feel i must say is don't rely on your own predictions. Not because I feel you are wrong about what may happen, but because I do not want you to suffer if your timing is wrong.
  • • 
      mudgod
      October 19, 2006
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      Thank you for the kind words. Jesus said you can't know the day or hour, but you can know the season. We see the king of the south (Iran and radical Islam) pushing at the knig of the north (German led EU with the backing of the Vatican)(see Daniel 11th chapter). The kings of the east (China, Russia, and whom ever in that area) is forming alliances and rapidly building a tremendous military might. At no other time in history has man had the ability to extiguish the entire human race in a matter of days, if not hours. No, this is the right season. We are only waiting for a few more players. Watch for someone like Edmund Stoiber to pull a power play in Germany. Also, I believe that the next event in prophecy to occur will be the Palestinians taking over the other half of Jerusalem. From there, events will speed up greatly. as far as God being pleased with me....I am nowhere near where I need to be to please Him. I try to have faith, but faith without works is dead faith.
    • • 
        Applehead
        October 20, 2006
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        edit
      • 
        Applehead
        October 20, 2006
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        edit
      • 
        Applehead
        October 20, 2006
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        Mudgod

        "To create confusion ahead of Christs return, Satan will likely continue to motivate people to set dates. Being exposed to date settings, observably makes non-Christians hostile to the end-time message." I found this on a site I've been checking out (www.ratureready.com). The ideas/beliefs seem very similar to yours. I thought the above maybe helpful I hope you do not mind.
  • 
    Applehead
    October 19, 2006
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    " I try to have faith, but faith without works is dead faith" We are only capable of that which life or God gives us, so if God gives us he will understand any failings we may meet as long as we try.
  • 
    mudgod
    October 24, 2006
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    Certainly, for everything that is from God, Satan has a counterfiet. The Iranians (or at least Amadinejad) believe that by creating world chaos (nukes and such), it will bring about the return of the 12th imam to restore Islamic order in the world. Obviously a counterfiet of the return of Jesus. Jesus said that you can't know the hour or day, but you can know the season. The verses ascribed to the rapture are misunderstood. The men (one remains and one is gone) I believe, pictures the people of God who have gone to the place of safety (a physical place not spiritual) and the people that once were of God (laodicians) that stay behind. The women picture God's true church (a woman in prophecy always refers to a church) again going to the place of safety and those that are not of God's true church (but gelieve they are) that stay behind. Again the rapture concept is a Satanic deception that counterfiets the true church physically going to the place of safety. If we use the Old Testament example of God saving His people, we see that they walked out of Egypt. Even though God said that he bore them on the wings of eagles. Anyway, the rapture is certainly something that I definitely do not believe in. Sometimes the differences can be very subtle. We must be sure to always, always prove all things. Even the things that are taught to us by our ministers. Rest assured, you cannot offend me. I welcome your input and the fact that you are searching and not condemning.
  • • 
      Applehead
      October 25, 2006
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      It is interesting that the Baha'i faith originates in Iran. The outward face of this religion seem open to all faiths but when you look at the actual doctrine its seems much based on the qur'an.
  • 
    Applehead
    October 25, 2006
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    "Rest assured, you cannot offend me. I welcome your input and the fact that you are searching and not condemning." Phew thanks mudgod. "The Iranians (or at least Amadinejad) believe that by creating world chaos (nukes and such), it will bring about the return of the 12th imam to restore Islamic order in the world." Now that is a terrifying thought.

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