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It is interesting and somewhat ironicVoted for by grant.
That the ONES with a judgemental God make judgements of others as if THEY ARE GOD.
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Is it right to judge?Voted for by Applehead.
And people without God make judgements also. Judgement has to be made sometimes otherwise the world would be chaotic.
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Sure we all judge. And as we judge others we are really judging ourselves. I think this is why the world actually IS chaotic. Not why it isn't. Surely to be interested in enlightenment is to become aware that all judgement is self judgement. If we can accept ourselves we can THEN accept others. I think it is about victimhood. We aren't victims, we just make unconscious choices due to conditioning. There is no victims there is only consequences. Consequences for the unconscious choices we make. If we become conscious of our conditioning we could become conscious of our choice to believe our conditioning. Then we can just as easily choose not to believe our conditioning. And then, maybe once seeing how all beliefs are personal choices, see that belief itself is also unnecessary. Then we can just BE.
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"I think this is why the world actually IS chaotic." Hhhmm I am starting to agree. The trouble is who will be brave enough to stop judging and risk being taken advantage of? "Surely to be interested in enlightenment is to become aware that all judgement is self judgement." If one can look upon oneself and learn then you will be enlightened. We can learn about ourselves by looking at others but I don't think we can judge ourselves by judging others unless the act we are judging is something we have done ourselves. What if we are judging something we have no personal experience of? "If we become conscious of our conditioning we could become conscious of our choice to believe our conditioning. Then we can just as easily choose not to believe our conditioning." This too could be seen as a road to enlightenment. We would be almost free to make choices without being restricted to past experience. But sometimes past experience can help you make decisions so to be free of our conditioning is one thing but to deny past experience would be throwing away hard earned knowledge. Conditioning and belief are different things. If you are enlightened and open minded you can make choices without refering to conditioned behaviour. I realise I may not get an answer to this so don't even answer but can you just BE grant? If not could this void be related to the fact that your inner being/soul/spirit whatever is actually searching for something that can only be found in faith? People in live in horrendous circumstances for example the many countries in Africa, as I am sure you are aware. I would think that people there would need God to turn to because they need faith when life is so difficult. This is understandable. Why when our lives are apparently so much more comfortable do we still feel drawn to look for the answers to why we are here. Because deep down in our heart of hearts we know there is meaning to all of 'this'. By this I mean the universe and everything in it. The wonders of our created Universe. Whether we live with the sheer desperation of survival or the material comfort of our western lives we all feel the presence/ loss of the energy from something we do not yet understand. When we accept this into our hearts then we can just BE. You may point out that not everyone in the western world is happy and this is my point even with our self created material world we are still not happy. No matter how hard we try we cannot escape the energy within. If we feel the love inside of us it feels so profound we run and hide incase we find that these immense feelings are all a lie and that would be devastating.
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Even to say "is it right to judge" is judging judging. All we need to do is observe the judging phenomena. It helps us understand that it is just phenomena, the product of our phenomenal minds. We readily observe cloud phenomena, so why not brain phenomena? Do we "judge" a cloud?
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One could judge a cloud. If a cloud became renegade and potentially destructive, we would, if capable, try to destroy it. We evaluate a clouds effectiveness and we admire its beauty (or lack thereof). These are all subjective judgemental inferences made on behalf of the observer(s).
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Yes, we could judge a cloud. I'm just suggesting how silly it would be to do so. And, as if to back this up, you come up with a very silly motive for judging a cloud. "Judgmental subjective observation" is an observation of the ego. How about observing the ego with it's judgments without judging. Simply observing is not judging because this is of the senses. To judge the sense's observations is the emotional brain (ego). It is like the brain judging it's liver. To observe without emotion is to observe THE emotions. If its not the emotional brain making these observations, then what do you think it might be?
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*"Simply observing is not judging because this is of the senses."* Senses are of the brain, just in a less (arguably) mental sense. To observe simply through the senses without subjective judgemental observation would indeed be void of judgement and ego. However, to do this at the most sublime level is to simply only percieve and be aware of such, but other than that one would be no more than a vegetative state, because to make inferences based on these senses (that they tell you things), one requires conscious judgement, or otherwise, all action would be based on instinct (sub-conscious reaction). That is, deliberation has no effect, and the conscious mind is in fact negated of its benefits. Inferences are void without judgement. Deliberation is void without judgement. Consciousness serves little evolutionary purpose besides this vastly enhancing product known as deliberation.
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"Senses are of the brain, just in a less (arguably) mental sense." Are you saying all emotion is imaginary?
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You going to reply to this or what? Lol ;)
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*"Are you saying all emotion is imaginary?"* Nope. That has nothing to do with what I was arguing. My point is that all experience is relative to the brain and percieved by the brain. Only the brain sees and interprets the world. So if the brain is subject to wrongful perceptions, what are the implications of this? That subjectivity may in fact be attributed to the seemingly objective. It's just another solipsism argument (the world is in your head). It is still true in a sense, just that some wish to rely on their senses, while I rely on my beliefs.
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One just learns to not make inferences. It is not a vegetative state. If you try it you will find that it is the complete opposite to "vegetative". Why not give it a go? It is reasonably straight forward interlectually. First you just observe or notice all your evaluations and judgements, but while you are judging maintain within your consciousness another dialogue. This dialogue is just saying something like "Oh look, there I go again judging this and judging that. How fascinating". After a while you may seriously start to consider that the one who does all this judging is not who you are. It is just an automatic response mechanism of the brain. This system is the real robot. It is the robot that is set on auto judgement. Not you. You can even humour yourself by having a wee giggle at all the judgement going on. To make light of it. If you start scolding yourself for judging this is just part of the process. Because then there is the opportunity to realise that the scolder is the same entity as the judge. It is just the ego. You are not the ego. So you just restart the process by observing the ego scolding ITSELF for judging (hopefully with some amusement). When all this judgement stops there isn't anything to even be amused about. There is just stuff around that gets absorbed into your consciousness rather than battled with. You become everything and nothing. Then the idea of nothing (physical death) is no longer an issue. Because there was no "you" in the first place. There is just all this. Just consciousness.
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grant, the stuff you just explained I figured out in kindergarten. Well, maybe an overexaggeration, but I certainly picked up on it all on the way. Yeah it is cool to observe the mental self. It is why I came to the conclusion that I was some sort of thought projection of a solipsist or something. And when I destroyed imagination, I just became a vegetable. Its like staring and barely maintaining even an utterance, as a sign of one's (supposed) existence. Yeah sure you can disregard all those things. Takes work, but you can. But then you delve deeper. You start disregarding your humour. You disregard your desires, your emotions (if you get strong enough or deluded enough to mentally maintain such a notion). You disregard even yourself, your hate for yourself, and then you realise possibility remains, in that an evil demon can simply do whatever he wants, and no amount of reasoning or mathematical equations can destroy such reasoning. The possible becomes the probable, because the probable (level) too is unknown. Then you realise that realising is of no benefit. It is merely the demon, or the other self, or some form of illusion that doesnt even exist. Then you question your own measure for existence and how you have been preprogrammed to 'believe' it is folly to think otherwise. The world was created five minutes ago. Self and consciousness is destroyed every nanosecond initiating new consciousness, and the new consciousness pre-supposes that it is the old conscious (via memory). Consciousness doesnt exist, it is merely the convictions of biological material to help it survive, and just because you lack understanding to percieve such doesnt change the fact (probable possibility). Dont use imagination. Dont judge, so dont judge the ineffectiveness of imagination. Dont make knowledge claims. Dont contradict. Do contradict. Utterance utterance utterance. Nothing. I am a vegetable. A vegetable that doesnt exist. But if I dont exist I cant think, so I better stop. I am a complete nihilist......... Your falling into a pit, not elevating yourself through your denial of seemingly flawed components of yourself. Belittlement can be attributed to anything, as long as you make sure to start attributing belittlement. And belittling components of the self, yes, components of the self that can be used by the self, even only if in an epiphenomal manner, is destructive. Start using belief, because its awesome. Laugh and have a good time; it sounds like you have a control problem (you cant laugh when you are believing or judging) so you are insecure. Believe you are not insecure, and you are fixed. Simple as that. That is when you have the laugh. Because you deny whatever you want.
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You guys have a dizzying intellect. Oh, I'm sorry. Am I being judgemental? When I consider The Thinker, I think he's trying to remember where his clothes are.
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Hhhmm no reply hey?
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heh heh
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frndofyaweh
October 16, 2006
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Define judgement first
To convict through trial, to weigh and measure, to condemn to punishment, based on a rod of justice in Hebrew times. Then of course you may say define punishment, for some punishment can be in the mind of presumed sufferer. Insults are sometimes, mis-understandings and not intentional punishment. Is criticism a punishment, or is it viewed diferently by some? Judging is actually a complex process, dealing with weighing points of fact. You may be assuming that Christian expression or witnessing, is some sort of judgement? Justt curious and no offense. I just need more details to be sure what you mean.grant
October 17, 2006
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Energizer Bunny
October 17, 2006
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Just curious
not meant as sarcasm, but what do you think it means grant?grant
October 17, 2006
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Energizer Bunny
October 18, 2006
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grant
October 18, 2006
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mudgod
October 19, 2006
grant
October 19, 2006
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TeChNoWC
October 20, 2006
Applehead
October 20, 2006
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grant
October 20, 2006
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TeChNoWC
October 20, 2006
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grant
October 20, 2006
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TeChNoWC
October 20, 2006
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grant
October 21, 2006
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TeChNoWC
October 21, 2006
grant
October 21, 2006
TeChNoWC
October 21, 2006
grant
October 21, 2006
grant
October 21, 2006
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to clarify
Your phenomenal brain is engaging with "my" phenomenal brain. This phenomenal event or experience is BEING observed. (emphasis on "being")TeChNoWC
October 21, 2006
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grant
October 21, 2006
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TeChNoWC
October 21, 2006
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grant
October 21, 2006
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TeChNoWC
October 21, 2006
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grant
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TeChNoWC
October 21, 2006
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grant
October 21, 2006
TeChNoWC
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grant
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TeChNoWC
October 22, 2006
grant
October 22, 2006
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Dwn
October 21, 2006
grant
October 21, 2006
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Applehead
October 21, 2006
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grant
October 21, 2006
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TeChNoWC
October 22, 2006
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grant
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TeChNoWC
October 23, 2006
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grant
October 23, 2006
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