please do not get this topic wrong.. it is to speak your own mind and not to critisize or talk bad about the topic....
"whats your opinion?"
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A Christian is a Christian is a ChristianBeing a Christian is not a denomination. Catholocism is a Christian denomination. Being Christian is simply a matter of believing that Jesus died for our sins and was resurected from the dead. It is simply accepting the fact that all men are sinners, including ourselves and accepting the grace that God provided through the sacrifice of his son.13% Voted for by Violet Moodswing, Brain Fetus, tfry, darkscorpia, irritatednihilist.
There is no Christian VS Catholic any more than there is Christian VS Baptist or Methodist or any other denomination.
Now if you were referring to differences between protestant and catholic, that is a different issue. But even there the differences are based in tedium and differences in tradition. Both incorporate the same God and the same saviour. -
Catholic AnswerTo reply to all of you about what YOU THINK YOU KNOW ABOUT CATHOLICISM - how many of you Catholic-bashers have ever studied the Catechism of the Catholic Church? Anyway I'm posting a general reply to all your ignorant statements(haven't been here in a long while).8% Voted for by Carpool, IvoryRose, lisasee.
I'm trying to make this short so if you need me to elaborate just ask.
Mary as the mother of God:
This simple statement of fact should be a "case closed" situation that could be argued with a classic syllogism:
Jesus is God
Mary is the mother of Jesus
Mary is the mother of God
But some people still balk at referring to Mary as God's mother. The only way they can get around that fact, though, is to do one of the following:
deny that Christ is God (heresy);
deny that He is both fully human and fully God and that those two natures are in perfect hypostasis and can't be divided (heresy);
deny that Jesus is the Son of Mary (heresy); or
claim that Jesus was God before His incarnation, but not while He was in the flesh (heresy).
Luke 1:43 tells us of Elisabeth greeting Mary with, "And whence is this to me, that the mother of my Lord should come to me?"
It's all very simple. The heresy of Nestorianism(belief that Mary is not Theotokos/mother of God) was refuted by the early Christians. Why are we re-visiting this heresy?
Sunday worship:
If you are of the opinion that the Catholic Church ruthlessly, without warrant, and in violation of God's law, played with the Decalogue and instituted Sunday as the day of worship, you are, in fact, admitting that the VERY earliest Christians were, indeed, Catholic.
St. Ignatius, friend of the Apostle Peter and apppointed by him as the Bishop of Antioch, wrote in his first century Epistle to the Ephesians:
"If, therefore, those who were brought up in the ancient order of things have come to the possession of a new hope, no longer observing the Sabbath, but living in the observance of the Lord's Day, on which also our life has sprung up again by Him and by His death -- whom some deny, by which mystery we have obtained faith, and therefore endure, that we may be found the disciples of Jesus Christ, our only Master -- how shall we be able to live apart from Him, whose disciples the prophets themselves in the Spirit did wait for Him as their Teacher? And therefore He whom they rightly waited for, being come, raised them from the dead." ... Be ye salted in Him, lest any one among you should be corrupted, since by your savour ye shall be convicted. It is absurd to profess Christ Jesus, and to Judaize. For Christianity did not embrace Judaism, but Judaism Christianity, that so every tongue which believeth might be gathered together to God."
From the first century Didache, Chapter 14, "Christian Assembly on the Lord's Day":
"But every Lord's day gather yourselves together, and break bread, and give thanksgiving after having confessed your transgressions, that your sacrifice may be pure. But let no one who is at odds with his fellow come together with you, until they be reconciled, that your sacrifice may not be profaned. For this is that which was spoken by the Lord: "In every place and time offer to me a pure sacrifice; for I am a great King, says the Lord, and my name is wonderful among the nations."
Letter of Barnabas 15:6-8, written in A.D. 74, at the end of a few paragraphs on the old Jewish Shabat vs. the Christian Lord's Day, wrote:
"We keep the eighth day [Sunday] with joyfulness, the day also on which Jesus rose again from the dead."
Prayer to Saints:
Don't all Christians believe in the communion of saints? I suppose you have a different definition than the original/Catholic one.
First a definition: "To pray," as a verb, has two very distinct meanings:
1 : to make a request in a humble manner
2 : to address God or a god with adoration, confession, supplication, or thanksgiving
It is only in this first sense that Catholics "pray" to saints. "To pray" is simply to ask, and it is a common English word as these examples will show: "Comes now Petitioner and, having filed his Motion in Limine, prays this Honorable Court to grant..." or "I pray thee, sir, might I borrow your book?". In the first instance, the Petitioner is not worshipping the Court. In the second, the potential book-borrower is not worshipping the book owner. And if I ever ask you, "Where have you been, pray tell?" I am not worshipping you, trust me!
All worship in the sense of latria is God's alone. All grace comes from God alone. Only Christ can save us. Please read these three sentences again; they are core Catholic doctrine as taught for 2,000 years.
OK, so why pray to saints? We pray to saints to ask them to pray for us, in the same way you might pray for me if I ask and I would pray for you if you ask. Christians are called to pray for each other: James 5:16 "Pray one for another... The effectual fervent prayer of a righteous man availeth much." I imagine that this isn't controversial for you!
'Graven Images':
"Veneration & 'Woship' of graven images:
God's prohibition against "graven images" (pecel is the relevant Hebrew word, which the Jews translated as "eidoloi", i.e. "idols," in the Septuagint) in the First Commandment (or Second Commandment, depending on your numbering system of the Decalogue) in no way prohibits art; it's a prohibition against the making of idols, i.e., false gods. This can be the ONLY interpretation of this Commandment for any other interpretation would make a liar out of God -- blasphemy! He commands Moses to make a fiery serpent (Numbers 21:8) and commands the Israelites to adorn the Ark of the Covenant with statues of gilded cherubim (Exodus 25 and Exodus 26). Solomon's Temple was dripping in ornateness -- carved cherubim, palm trees, open flowers (I Kings 6) -- and it was commanded to be so by God (1 Chronicles 28:18-19). Ezekiel's visionary Temple (Ezekiel 41) was likewise filled with statuary... And what to make of interior of the 3rd c. Dura Europus Synagogue, literally covered in frescoes Or the decoration of the 4th c. Hammath Synagogues near Tiberias? From the very earliest times, Christians have used images to aid in worship. Here is how 19th c. archaeologist Rodolfo Lanciani describes his investigation of just one single area of the Christian Catacombs:
When, on December 19, I entered the cubiculum no. 54, in which the paintings are, and he began to point out to me the outlines of figures and objects, I thought he was laboring under an optical delusion; I could see nothing beyond a blackened and mouldy plaster surface. My eyes, however, soon became initiated to the new experience, and able to round the lines of this curious palimpsest. The dark spots soon grew into shape, and lovely groups, inspired by the purest Christian symbolism, appeared on the walls. There are thirteen pictures, representing the following-named subjects: the Annunciation, the three Magi following the star (which is shaped like the monogram Chi-Rho), their Adoration at Bethlehem, the Baptism of our Lord, the Last Judgment, the healing of the blind, the woman of Samaria, the Good Shepherd (twice), the Orantes (twice).
Catholics use statuary and other icons in the same way most people use photographs of their children on their desks at the office: to remind them of someone. A statue of Christ reminds us where all salvation comes from. Seeing an icon of Mary reminds us of her humility before her Son and Savior and acts as a "window into Heaven". A statue of St. Francis of Asissi reminds us of his obedience. A statue of Thérèse of Lisieux reminds us that all of us can find sainthood even if we're "little" and "unimportant". And so on.
The Catechism of the Catholic Church makes very clear the Catholic stance against idolatry:
2112 The first commandment condemns polytheism. It requires man neither to believe in, nor to venerate, other divinities than the one true God. Scripture constantly recalls this rejection of "idols, [of] silver and gold, the work of men's hands. They have mouths, but do not speak; eyes, but do not see." These empty idols make their worshippers empty: "Those who make them are like them; so are all who trust in them."God, however, is the "living God" who gives life and intervenes in history.
2113 Idolatry not only refers to false pagan worship. It remains a constant temptation to faith. Idolatry consists in divinizing what is not God. Man commits idolatry whenever he honors and reveres a creature in place of God, whether this be gods or demons (for example, satanism), power, pleasure, race, ancestors, the state, money, etc. Jesus says, "You cannot serve God and mammon." Many martyrs died for not adoring "the Beast" refusing even to simulate such worship. Idolatry rejects the unique Lordship of God; it is therefore incompatible with communion with God.
2114 Human life finds its unity in the adoration of the one God. The commandment to worship the Lord alone integrates man and saves him from an endless disintegration. Idolatry is a perversion of man's innate religious sense. An idolater is someone who "transfers his indestructible notion of God to anything other than God." [quoting Origen's Contra Celsum]
If you truly believe, though, that God doesn't want people making statues, icons, or other images at all, for any reason, be sure to contact the Louvre and have them throw out all the Bernini and Michelangelo sculpture and paintings by Rembrandt... We might have to get rid of the Lincoln Memorial and Mount Rushmore, also. Oh, and don't forget to toss out your daughter's dolls, your "Precious Moments" figurines, teddy bear refrigerator magnets, family pictures, and video collection, too!
The problem lies where people WORHIP INANIMATE OBJECTS - an object itself is not harmful.
The Holy Eucharist:
The Holy Gospel of Jesus Christ according to St. John
6 56 For my flesh is meat indeed: and my blood is drink indeed.
6 57 He that eateth my flesh and drinketh my blood abideth in me: and I in him.
6 61 Many therefore of his disciples, hearing it, said: This saying is hard; and who can hear it?
6 62 But Jesus, knowing in himself that his disciples murmured at this, said to them: Doth this scandalize you?
THE FIRST EPISTLE OF ST. PAUL TO THE CORINTHIANS
11 26 For as often as you shall eat this bread and drink the chalice, you shall shew the death of the Lord, until he come.
11 27 Therefore, whosoever shall eat this bread, or drink the chalice of the Lord unworthily, shall be guilty of the body and of the blood of the Lord.
11 28 But let a man prove himself: and so let him eat of that bread and drink of the chalice.
11 29 For he that eateth and drinketh unworthily eateth and drinketh judgment to himself, not discerning the body of the Lord.
Let me ask to something: you can bring judgement upon yourself for not discerning a SYMBOL? When St. Paul says "For as often as you shall eat this bread and drink the chalice, you shall shew the death of the Lord, until he come" this describes the Catholic mass.
Is there anything else you would like to accuse me of believing in? I'd love to tell you about your Bible also.
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hmm to put it in new-age terms...Catholics seem like the 'emos' of Christianity =P8% Voted for by Molzahn, Sganet, Pentecostal.
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differencesfist of anybody who believes in Jesus as the savior is a christian. catholisism is the only christian religion that has been here since jesus´s death. and the real differences are that the catholics have certain believes because the believe in the bible and tradition brought out from the time of Jesus. protestants tend to go to the only bible kinda thing. catholics have sacraments: baptism, first communion, confirmation, marriage, orders, reconseliation, and the euchrist. also in the celebration of the mass the catholics truely believe that in that waffer and that wine Jesus is there. the body blood and divinity of jesus, transubstanciation(something like that). catholics also believe that saints, angels, Mary can interced for us. oh by the way mary did have to be special.. in order for jesus to have been the perfect sacrifice he would have to be consived without original sin, in other words God condenmed adam and eve for this sin and it would be on their descendents. so mary must have been born without original sin in order for jesus to truely be our savior. the heart of the catholic beliefs is ofcourse the euchrist, consecrated waffer. since a catholic truely believes that in that waffer jesus is present at that very moment. remember the wedding at Canaan, mary told jesus to intervine and his response is:"what do you want me to do woman. it is not my time yet." but yet he still did a miracle because his mother told him to. that and certain appearances of mary... ofcourse i know more of our lady of guadalupe. where mary appeared to an indian. and the proof is the clothe that is 475 years old, yesturday Dec 12, where the image of her was placed. i know this cause im catholic and its one of those things that all catholics should know... atleast the basics. i would have to do a little more reaserch to tell you more. and catholics have a pope, which is the only person that can annul a marriage.8% Voted for by pnktrky, Brain Fetus, SilverQ.
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Father the son and the holy spirtsome say that Mary is just the mother of god and should not be worshiped... only god the father the son and the holy spirt... also i heard that christians dont use prayers like holy mary, and that they refer to things that are read in the bible...5% Voted for by CHeRRy-bLoSSoM808, abii2.
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Differences...The two biggest differences are this:5% Voted for by Lowercase Prelude, Arts.
1) They (Catholics) believe that Mary is the "theotokos" which means "God-bearer". In this, it is taught that because Mary bore God, she couldn't have been a sinner. So the thought is that Mary was sinless, which is ridiculous and totally un-Biblical.
2) Catholics participate in confession, which is useless because of what Christ did on the cross. He made a way for us to speak directly to the Father. -
False DistinctionsRoman Catholicism is a large Christian denomination. It just so happens to be a long-established institution compared with others, and it has as many adherents as the rest put together. However their theology contains many errors. It is wrong to suggest that the elements of Eucharist are physically Jesus Christ's body and blood - god knows how they can confuse such imagery with reality! Also, Jesus was not god, and Mary was not mother of god - these were real people like us - it was just that Jesus Christ was an innovative moral philosopher whose ideas in part have stuck. To call Mary sinless is silly, really. I see a string of biblical justifications in the preceding posting - really there is not much use in using the bible to prove the bible is true. Quoting from Alice through the Looking Glass does not make the Mad Hatter a historical person!5% Voted for by Arts, Dylan Aphex.
The real differentiator for Roman Catholicism for me is its heavily top-down hierarchical structure - that has come up to bite them now with global abuse cases decades back being reported and acted upon. Canon law has turned out to be cannon law. Blown up in their faces!
As for appointing mortals to sainthood -that is purely a PR exercise. Pope John Paul II was an interesting man, but no saint was he. He performed no miracles, he was a struggler.
NO sorry chaps and lasses, but the Roman Catholic church is just another supernatural believing institution. Archaic, dated, obsolete even. It is OK to think now, exercise critical judgment . Be brave, go on! -
JESUS!I AM SO SICK OF IGNORANT PEOPLE WHO KEEP SAYING THAT CATHOLICISM IS DIFFERENT FROM CHRISTIANITY. OMFG. CATHOLICISM IS A SUBGROUP OF CHRISTIANITY. EDUCATE YOURSELF BEFORE ASKING SUCH QUESTIONS.5% Voted for by icyrose, MayaLouise.
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just saying!Mary doesnt intercede for any one neither the saints. thats why Jesus died for us. the only one that intercedes for us is Jesus. just an opinion, Jesus never called mary mother, he always referred to her as women. Y? i think we all agree on that Jesus is God right, and God is the alpha and omega, beginning and end right? so that kind of rules out mary being GODS mother, God is Jesus as well as the holy spirit.5% Voted for by jaf3t, Sganet.
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What makes them so different as to need seperate names?[Note: Christian in this refers to those who refer to themselves as Christian, and not Catholic. I understand Catholics consider themselves Christians also.]Voted for by GreyDaze.
I am very uneducated when it comes to religion in general, especially when it comes to Christianity and the denominations. I've never understood either what the difference is between someone who is Christian and calls themself such, and someone who is Catholic and calls themself Catholic.
From what I see, there's the Pope. I'm not sure what he's for. But don't Catholics and Christians have the same bible? The differences I see so far are saints and no saints. But..I'm not quite sure what the huge difference is. Why are Catholics stereotypically refered to as "religion nazis", as in Catholic school with the ruler abuse and the constantly telling you you're going to hell?
[I understand that this isn't true. It's the media's view. I want to understand how it got to be presented that way.] -
Rat poison is 90% healthy 10% DeadlyThe Catholics are doing 90% correct. They follow Jesus and that is great. There are afew problems...10% (maybe more)Voted for by jesusfollower777.
1. the first commandment is to have no other gods before Him. Catholics pray to idols of Mary and a few others I am not certain. They pray to others besides God, including the Saints, who have nothing to do with Jesus. They were good followers of the Lord, but can do nothing for you. In revelation an angel appeared to John, and he bowed down to the angel, but the Angel said he should not. So why are they doing it still.
2. The euchrist is believed to really be Jesus Himself. Now if you remember the last supper, when Jesus told them to do " do this in rememberance of me". Thats all. we should take of the cup and eat of the bread remembering Him and all he did for us. The Catholics say that Jesus is there on the alter. Well I believe that Jesus is with us all the time. He did say " and surely I will be with you, even to the end of the age." He is with us, not only when the waffer and wine come out.
3. Indulgenced prayer. Where in the Bible does it say that saying this prayer before a crucifix will enable us to gain an indulgence of 10 years. Find it please and show me. Besides I am not too worried about 10 years because I have eternity to live out and that is long............
4. Praying to Jesus. Does the Bible not say (actually Jesus himself talking) that we should pray to the Father in His name? So why, when I look at a Catholic prayer book, do I see them praying to Jesus. Jesus said we are to pray to the Father in Jesus name. and as I said in my first point that The Father is the only one we pray to. No angels, no saints.
5. Purgatory. Do a search, and you will not find anything such as this in the Bible. when Jesus was on the cross, the one robber said " surely you are the Christ" and what did Jesus say? " Today you will be with me in paradise". Well that doesn't sound like a place where apparently you suffer until they are fit to be admitted to the presence of God. The way they put it makes it sound like Jesus didnt really do a good job on the cross. That we still need a cleansing before going to heaven. God Himself, the Father tore the veil, inviting us into His throne Room. What an amazing blessing, Gods Grace.
6. Confessions. well I do believe that we sin, even when we are saved. So there has to be further forgiveness. But I totally dont agree with going into a little box and tell the Father your sins. You can do this right next to your bed. Remember that the veil has been torn, so we do not need someone else to talk to God for us. This is all part of the new covenant. And I saw that doing confession makes the Priest Holy. God is no respector of man, so how can it make him Holy.
7. Born-again. Jesus said you have to be born-again of spirit and you believe He died for your sins so you might enter heaven. So why is it that Catholics do not actually give their lives to Christ? You have to actually make a decision and make Jesus Lord of your life. You cannot go to Church every Sunday and think you are going to Heaven. You must confess with your mouth and believe in your heart that Jesus is Lord. Angus Buchan once said " Good people don't go to Heaven, if that were the case, the Muslims would go before us, because their good works are far more than ours. No, Bleivers go to Heaven." we are not worthy to recieve His Grace, but He really loves us and He is Mighty to save.
Well that is my opinion. I have lots more points that I would like to share, but these I felt were really the main share of the 10% Deadly Poison. -
the man in the mirrorFirst off your question as it is stated is insulting to Catholics.( I realize that you didn’t intend to be such )Voted for by bob2314.
Catholics conceder themselves to be Christian too. If I could be so bold to change your question slightly?
What is the difference between fundamentalist catholic and fundamentalist protestant theology?
Yes cherry-blossom808 there are fundamentalist Catholics Ex. opus dei .
To me both have abandoned the sprit of Jesus’ teaching to follow a false idol, human intellect in the form of their various theologies. Both groups would rather argue about the burning question “did Adam have a belly button” than to look at the world around them and ask them selves is their anything I can do to relieve peoples suffering? The choice as you have laid it out to me is some thing akin to the choice between the electric chair and hanging both options should be avoided and in the end you will end up just as dead which ever one you choose. You see cherry-blossom I am gay and having had to share air with these groups for 43 years my opinion has, as you would expect become slightly jaundiced. Both are really good at telling me how and why I’m going to hell. They have one itty-bitty problem they have forgotten what a mirror is used for.
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my posts keep disappearing. .about you people saying that Catholics shouldn't pray to saints because that makes them intecessors/mediators and there is only one - Jesus: The apostles told the Christains to pray for one another - does it take away from Christ when you pray for a loved one? Does it make you an intercessor? It all goes back to what your definition of 'communion of saints' is.Voted for by Carpool.
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Explain this?The Catholic church was founded by Jesus (God) and the Christian churches were ALL founded by a man. You don't need a bible to get this info--just check in any encyclopedia. For example, the Anglican church was founded by Henry the VIII because he couldn't get his own way in obtaining a divorce. He never professed to having divine authority conferred on him by God- -he just basically said that he didn't like the rules of the Catholic church so he would form his own where he could get his own way. Now, given my choice of whom to follow, Henry VIII (or others like him) or Jesus (God), my choice is Jesus. I'm not saying that there aren't good people in other Christian religions, I'm just saying that it is only logical and rational for me to follow Jesus (God) and not a man. I don't want to get into a war of words or quotes from the bible because I think you just lose a lot of people in the process. The pertinent words in this situation are in both versiions of the bible--ours and the King James version--'you are Peter and upon this rock I will build my church' and if you are to believe the words of Jesus, it's quite clear that He gave the authority of the church to Peter. I do understand that the many translations of the bible have left some wondering how each translators own personal ideas are reflected, but in this case, Matthew seems to be pretty well intact no matter which version you read. I have never found anywhere where Jesus gave authority over His church to anyone except St. Peter--not to Henry VIII or Martin Luther or Sylvia Browne or anybody else. So for me the question isn't why follow the Catholic church but why not, when all the proof is there right in front of your face or in the case of other Christians, right in your own King James bible?Voted for by allengenises.
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There is no difference.There are many forms of Christianity, being Catholic is one form. I'm an Armenian Orthodox Christian. This is a strange question to even ask. The fundamental belief is in Jesus as the Savior.Voted for by Megan E. Joseph.
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Biblical PerspectiveDear brothers and sisters,Voted for by josejebaraj.
Who is man to criticize God, the Almighty? I am not here to discuss the differences between Christianity and Catholicism but to show you what Bible explicitly says:
Jesus said to him, "I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me." - John 14:6 (not saints, angels, etc.)
"And whatever you ask in My name, that I will do, that the Father may be glorified in the Son. If you ask anything in My name, I will do it. If you love Me, keep My commandments." - John 14:13-15 (no other name in this world is given such a power)
“Thou shalt not make thyself any graven image, any form of what is in the heavens above, or what is in the earth beneath, or what is in the waters under the earth.” - Deuteronomy 5:8 (Very clear, isn’t it?)
Who follows the above?
God bless! -
A house dividedIt is really sad to read all of these posts. If it sadens my heart to read or hear of fellow followers of Christ Jesus arguing who is a better christian or who is right or wrong I can only imagine how God feels as his children sit and argue... pointing fingers and blame. How will any of you stand in the days to come? Stand together against the possible evils that will come if all you can do is argue amongst yourselves. God alone will judge each of us, it was never meant for us to stand and judge eachother but to love, pray, guide, intercede and help one antoher.Voted for by angelndisguiz.
I was born Catholic but am truly just a follower of Christ. I have gone to every kind of church and the saddest thing I have seen and heard is the argueing amongst the believers. Does it not say in the bible...Matthew 12:25, 'And Jesus knew their thoughts, and said unto them, Every kingdom divided against itself is brought to desolation; and every city or house divided against itself shall not stand'
What have we allowed to happen to God's house - the house being his church made up of all us believers.
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The Catholics do not keep the commandments of GodThe Bible (God's Word) commands a seventh day sabbath, which is easily proveable to be Saturday. From sunset Friday to sunset Saturday. The Catholics keep Sunday not Saturday and even admit that they changed it with no scriptural authority.Voted for by mudgod.
The Catholic Cardinal Gibbons, in Faith of Our Fathers, pg. 111, said, "You may read the Bible from Genesis to Revelation, and you will not find a single line authorizing the sanctification of Sunday. The Scriptures enforce the religious observance of Saturday, a day which we (The Roman Catholic Church) never sanctify.
There are many other "Catholic" references to this on the following site:
http://members.aol.com/KHoeck2/notes.html
And remember; Jesus was a Jew and kept the Saturday (seventh day) sabbath. -
Bible Back-Up for CatholicismI'm Catholic, and while discerning my journey to confirmation, I scoured my Bible, making sure I joining the church that fully encompasses the teachings of Jesus and here is what I found:Voted for by CatholicGirl.
1. The authority of the Pope/ Apostolic Succession
Acts 1:15
Acts 2:14
Acts 2:41
Acts 3:7
Acts 5:4-5
Acts 9:40
Acts 15:7
Acts 15:19-20
Cephas the Aramaic word for rock is what Jesus referred to Peter as. In Greek Petras is the word used. Jesus spoke Arabic in which the word Petra (small rock) is feminine, Jesus would have used Petras (masculine) which means large rock.
2.Mary
Luke 1:48
Rev chapter 12
Luke 1:28
Luke 1:37
Luke 1:47
Matthew 1:23
Luke 1:35
Luke 1:43
Luke 1:48
John 2:3-11
John 19:26-27
Gal 4:4
1 King 2:19-20
2 Kings 24:12
Jer 13:18
Ex 13:2
Nm 3:12
Matthew 1:25
Mark 6:3
John 19:27
Is 7:14
Matthew 1:20
Matthew 1:23
Luke 1:34
Luke 1:28-36
Luke 1:42-43
Mary the mother of God, gave birth to Jesus (obviously). A mother never just gives birth to a body, your own mother wouldn't say that she didn't give birth to all of you, body mind, soul, and spirit, that she only gave birth to just your body. Neither did Mary, she gave birth to ALL of Jesus. The belief of the Trinity is that God is three forms (persons) in one, kinda like a combo deal. If Mary is the mother of Jesus, part of the trinity, then isn't she the mother of God? Jesus honors his mother, and to imitate Jesus, we should honor his mother, Mary. If we are all also parts of the body of Christ Jesus, then isn't Mary then all of our mothers? God uses Mary to draw us closer to His Son, Jesus. Catholics do not in any way shape or form worship Mary. We honor her, and look to her as an example.
3.The Eucharist
1 Cor 10:16-17
Mal1:11
Matthew 26:26-28
Mark 14:22
Luke 22:19-20
Luke 24:29-31
John6:51-69
Acts 2:42
1 Cor 5:7-8
1 Cor 10:16
1 Cor 11:22
1 Cor 11:26-34
Heb 13:8
When a priest consecrates the bread and wine, it truly becomes the body and blood of our Lord. Christ does not die in the Eucharist, he died on the cross for our sins, in the Eucharist, He gives us eternal life.
4. Purgatory
2 Mc 12:46
Sir 7:37
Matthew 5:26
Matthew 12:32
Matthew 12:36
Luke 12:59
John 11:39-44
Acts 9:36-41
1 Cor 3:13-15
2 Cor 12:2
Phil 2:10
2 Tim 1:18
Heb 12:10-11
Heb 12:22-23
1 Pt 1:7
1 Pt 3:19
1 Pt 4:6
1 John 5:16-17
Rev 21:27
The word purgatory is never found exactly in Scripture. Neither is Trinity and Incarnation, but we still believe in them. Sheol (Hebrew), Hades (Greek), and Purgatorio (Latin) all mean the same thing. They all refer to a place not Heaven, and not Hell, where your soul is completely purified on it's way to heaven.
5. Saints
Mark 9:4
Luke 16:24
Rom 12:5
1 Cor 10:16-17
1 Cor 12:25-26
Gal 6:2
Gal 6:10
Eph 1:22-23
Eph 2:19
Eph 4:4
Eph 4:16
Col 1:18-24
Col 3:15
1 Thes 5:10
Heb 12:1
Saints like Mary, are not worshiped, only honored, and asked for help. It's like asking your friend after a tough day to pray for you, or if your mom is having surgery, you ask all of your family and friends to pray for her, same principle. Saints, have lived amazing lives, and many are patrons of different causes, like St. Anthony, the patron saint of lost things.
6. Confession
Lv 5:5-6
Nm 5:5-7
Erza 9:1-2
Matthew 3:6
Matthew 18:18
Luke 10:16
John 20:223
Acts 19:18
1 Cor 11:27
2 Cor 5:18-19
Jas 5:16
1 John 1:9-10
Jesus gave His apostles the power to forgive sin. This has been passed down through the ages because Jesus knew that humans would sin until the end of time. We confess our sins to a priest like Jesus taught us, but it is God who forgives them.
7. Relics
2 Kgs 13:21
Matthew 9:20
Matthew 12:36
Acts 5:15-16
Acts 19:11-12
Catholics believe that only God can perform miracles, sometimes God works miracles through a certain person. Sometimes God will also work a miracle through a certain inanimate object to show the intercessory power of a particular saint.
8. Tradition
Dt 32:7
Ps 44:2
Ps 78:3
Matthew 2:5-6
Matthew 2:23
Matthew 15:6
Matthew 23:3
Matthew 28:20
Mark 7:5-13
Mark 13:31
Mark 16:15
Luke 10:16
Luke 24:32
John 14:26
John 21:25
Acts 2:42
Acts 20:35
Rom 10:17
1 Cor 10:4
1 Cor 11:2
1 Cor 12:1-3
1 Cor 15:11
2 Cor 3:2-3
Eph 3:10
Col 2:8
2 Thes 2:15
2 Thes 3:6
2 Tim 1:13
2 Tim 2:2
2 Tim 3:8
2 Tim 3:14
2 Tim 3:16
Ti 1:14
1 Pt 1:35
2 Pt 3:16
2 Jn 1:12
Jude 1:9
Catholics follow Sacred Tradition (uppercase) passed down from the words of the apostles, which is the unwritten word of God. This different from Jewish tradition (lowercase), that was made by man. Catholics do not follow human tradition, only Sacred Tradition.
Thanks so much for sticking with me to the end. I hope this helped clear up some issues! God bless!
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The SameAll religions tie together. They all originated from someone's idea that someone else took into consideration and put their own beliefs into it. Therefore you have many different type of religions. But they routed from the same thing.Voted for by Rhapsody.
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Not the real issueWhat's the difference between Baptists and Methodists and Messianic Jews?....that's what I wanna know!!!!!!!Voted for by Alexander Hine.
Adding your reply:
. By the time I got to the end I could not remember the first half. I guess I need to work on my attention span
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mudgod
December 16, 2006
Yes, but
So, to be considered a vegetarian, you only need to believe in vegetables, right? Or to be considered a mechanic, you only need to believe in machines? No. And neither can one be a Christian by only believing in Christ. You have to be a follower of Christ. You have to believe what He belives. You have to keep the rules that He keeps. Jesus said,"if you love me, keep the commandments." How many worship without idols such as crucifixes, statues, or stained glass symbols (2nd commandment)? How many keep the seventh day sabbath, from Friday at sundown to Saturday at sundown (4th commandment)? Not very many. Jesus said that many would come in His name saying that He (Jesus) was the Christ and deceive many. He also said that you make the commandments of God of no effect because you instead keep the traditions of men.pnktrky
December 23, 2006
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Xelgaroth
August 13, 2007
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December 16, 2006
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:)
Actually, I am a vegetarian too.All denomonations are steeped in the traditions of men. Only God knows the human heart so we humans aren't in much of a possition to judge. I believe deeply in the fact that I am saved by grace and grace alone. Grace is a free gift that I do not deserve, nor does any other human being. I will not point fingers at any other human because I am judged in the same manner that I judge others. We all have dirt under the rug somewhere even if we have it neatly tucked away where we can no longer see it. So best to simply be humble before the Lord and allow him to deal with our hearts.
I have enough stuff to clean up on my side of the street to keep me busy enough not to worry so much about yours
My point was that there is no Catholic vs Christian. It is just another Christian denomination filled with religous leaders who are sometimes filled with the spirit of the Pharisee just like all the other christian religious denominations. Denomination does not provide salvation. Denomination does not prove the heart of a man. In fact, following all the rules does not prove the heart of a man either. It simply proves that he follows the rules.
At best, we all only make feeble attempts to walk as Jesus did. I am not without fault so I don't throw stones.
mudgod
December 23, 2006
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pnktrky
December 26, 2006
October 26, 2009
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9“As the Father has loved me, so have I loved you. Now remain in my love. 10If you obey my commands, you will remain in my love, just as I have obeyed my Father’s commands and remain in his love. 11I have told you this so that my joy may be in you and that your joy may be complete. 12My command is this: Love each other as I have loved you. 13Greater love has no one than this, that he lay down his life for his friends. 14You are my friends if you do what I command. 15I no longer call you servants, because a servant does not know his master’s business. Instead, I have called you friends, for everything that I learned from my Father I have made known to you. 16You did not choose me, but I chose you and appointed you to go and bear fruit—fruit that will last. Then the Father will give you whatever you ask in my name. 17This is my command: Love each other.
Therefore Roman Catholic church is not violating Jesus Christ Commandments.
October 26, 2009
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Ten Commandments are from God the Father which no human being could obey. So God the father sent us his only begotten son, that whosoever believeth in him shall not persih but have everlasting life. In John 15:9-17, Jesus Refers to his commandments not by god the father's commandments.
9“As the Father has loved me, so have I loved you. Now remain in my love. 10If you obey my commands, you will remain in my love, just as I have obeyed my Father’s commands and remain in his love. 11I have told you this so that my joy may be in you and that your joy may be complete. 12My command is this: Love each other as I have loved you. 13Greater love has no one than this, that he lay down his life for his friends. 14You are my friends if you do what I command. 15I no longer call you servants, because a servant does not know his master’s business. Instead, I have called you friends, for everything that I learned from my Father I have made known to you. 16You did not choose me, but I chose you and appointed you to go and bear fruit—fruit that will last. Then the Father will give you whatever you ask in my name. 17This is my command: Love each other.
Therefore Roman Catholic church is not violating Jesus Christ Commandments. Because, whomsoever believeth in him shall not perish but have everlasting life. Only by his grace, all of us can be saved.
October 26, 2009
Edit | Reply
Ten Commandments are from God the Father which no human being could obey. So God the father sent us his only begotten son, that whosoever believeth in him shall not persih but have everlasting life. In John 15:9-17, Jesus Refers to his commandments not by god the father's commandments.
9“As the Father has loved me, so have I loved you. Now remain in my love. 10If you obey my commands, you will remain in my love, just as I have obeyed my Father’s commands and remain in his love. 11I have told you this so that my joy may be in you and that your joy may be complete. 12My command is this: Love each other as I have loved you. 13Greater love has no one than this, that he lay down his life for his friends. 14You are my friends if you do what I command. 15I no longer call you servants, because a servant does not know his master’s business. Instead, I have called you friends, for everything that I learned from my Father I have made known to you. 16You did not choose me, but I chose you and appointed you to go and bear fruit—fruit that will last. Then the Father will give you whatever you ask in my name. 17This is my command: Love each other.
Therefore Roman Catholic church is not violating Jesus Christ Commandments. Because, whomsoever believeth in him shall not perish but have everlasting life. Only by his grace, all of us can be saved.
October 26, 2009
Edit | Reply
Ten Commandments are from God the Father which no human being could obey. So God the father sent us his only begotten son, that whosoever believeth in him shall not persih but have everlasting life. In John 15:9-17, Jesus Refers to his commandments not by god the father's commandments.
9“As the Father has loved me, so have I loved you. Now remain in my love. 10If you obey my commands, you will remain in my love, just as I have obeyed my Father’s commands and remain in his love. 11I have told you this so that my joy may be in you and that your joy may be complete. 12My command is this: Love each other as I have loved you. 13Greater love has no one than this, that he lay down his life for his friends. 14You are my friends if you do what I command. 15I no longer call you servants, because a servant does not know his master’s business. Instead, I have called you friends, for everything that I learned from my Father I have made known to you. 16You did not choose me, but I chose you and appointed you to go and bear fruit—fruit that will last. Then the Father will give you whatever you ask in my name. 17This is my command: Love each other.
Therefore Roman Catholic church is not violating Jesus Christ Commandments. Because, whomsoever believeth in him shall not perish but have everlasting life. Only by his grace, all of us can be saved.
October 26, 2009
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dhombiz
Hey mud packTen Commandments are from God the Father which no human being could obey. So God the father sent us his only begotten son, that whosoever believeth in him shall not persih but have everlasting life. In John 15:9-17, Jesus Refers to his commandments not by god the father's commandments.
9“As the Father has loved me, so have I loved you. Now remain in my love. 10If you obey my commands, you will remain in my love, just as I have obeyed my Father’s commands and remain in his love. 11I have told you this so that my joy may be in you and that your joy may be complete. 12My command is this: Love each other as I have loved you. 13Greater love has no one than this, that he lay down his life for his friends. 14You are my friends if you do what I command. 15I no longer call you servants, because a servant does not know his master’s business. Instead, I have called you friends, for everything that I learned from my Father I have made known to you. 16You did not choose me, but I chose you and appointed you to go and bear fruit—fruit that will last. Then the Father will give you whatever you ask in my name. 17This is my command: Love each other.
Therefore Roman Catholic church is not violating Jesus Christ Commandments. Because, whomsoever believeth in him shall not perish but have everlasting life. Only by his grace, all of us can be saved.
October 26, 2009
Edit | Reply
dhombiz
Hey mud packTen Commandments are from God the Father which no human being could obey. So God the father sent us his only begotten son, that whosoever believeth in him shall not persih but have everlasting life. In John 15:9-17, Jesus Refers to his commandments not by god the father's commandments.
9“As the Father has loved me, so have I loved you. Now remain in my love. 10If you obey my commands, you will remain in my love, just as I have obeyed my Father’s commands and remain in his love. 11I have told you this so that my joy may be in you and that your joy may be complete. 12My command is this: Love each other as I have loved you. 13Greater love has no one than this, that he lay down his life for his friends. 14You are my friends if you do what I command. 15I no longer call you servants, because a servant does not know his master’s business. Instead, I have called you friends, for everything that I learned from my Father I have made known to you. 16You did not choose me, but I chose you and appointed you to go and bear fruit—fruit that will last. Then the Father will give you whatever you ask in my name. 17This is my command: Love each other.
Therefore Roman Catholic church is not violating Jesus Christ Commandments. Because, whomsoever believeth in him shall not perish but have everlasting life. Only by his grace, all of us can be saved.
October 26, 2009
Edit | Reply
dhombiz
Hey mud packTen Commandments are from God the Father which no human being could obey. So God the father sent us his only begotten son, that whosoever believeth in him shall not persih but have everlasting life. In John 15:9-17, Jesus Refers to his commandments not by god the father's commandments.
9“As the Father has loved me, so have I loved you. Now remain in my love. 10If you obey my commands, you will remain in my love, just as I have obeyed my Father’s commands and remain in his love. 11I have told you this so that my joy may be in you and that your joy may be complete. 12My command is this: Love each other as I have loved you. 13Greater love has no one than this, that he lay down his life for his friends. 14You are my friends if you do what I command. 15I no longer call you servants, because a servant does not know his master’s business. Instead, I have called you friends, for everything that I learned from my Father I have made known to you. 16You did not choose me, but I chose you and appointed you to go and bear fruit—fruit that will last. Then the Father will give you whatever you ask in my name. 17This is my command: Love each other.
Therefore Roman Catholic church is not violating Jesus Christ Commandments. Because, whomsoever believeth in him shall not perish but have everlasting life. Only by his grace, all of us can be saved.
October 26, 2009
Edit | Reply
dhombiz
Hey mud packTen Commandments are from God the Father which no human being could obey. So God the father sent us his only begotten son, that whosoever believeth in him shall not persih but have everlasting life. In John 15:9-17, Jesus Refers to his commandments not by god the father's commandments.
9“As the Father has loved me, so have I loved you. Now remain in my love. 10If you obey my commands, you will remain in my love, just as I have obeyed my Father’s commands and remain in his love. 11I have told you this so that my joy may be in you and that your joy may be complete. 12My command is this: Love each other as I have loved you. 13Greater love has no one than this, that he lay down his life for his friends. 14You are my friends if you do what I command. 15I no longer call you servants, because a servant does not know his master’s business. Instead, I have called you friends, for everything that I learned from my Father I have made known to you. 16You did not choose me, but I chose you and appointed you to go and bear fruit—fruit that will last. Then the Father will give you whatever you ask in my name. 17This is my command: Love each other.
Therefore Roman Catholic church is not violating Jesus Christ Commandments. Because, whomsoever believeth in him shall not perish but have everlasting life. Only by his grace, all of us can be saved.
October 26, 2009
Edit | Reply
dhombiz
Hey mud packTen Commandments are from God the Father which no human being could obey. So God the father sent us his only begotten son, that whosoever believeth in him shall not persih but have everlasting life. In John 15:9-17, Jesus Refers to his commandments not by god the father's commandments.
9“As the Father has loved me, so have I loved you. Now remain in my love. 10If you obey my commands, you will remain in my love, just as I have obeyed my Father’s commands and remain in his love. 11I have told you this so that my joy may be in you and that your joy may be complete. 12My command is this: Love each other as I have loved you. 13Greater love has no one than this, that he lay down his life for his friends. 14You are my friends if you do what I command. 15I no longer call you servants, because a servant does not know his master’s business. Instead, I have called you friends, for everything that I learned from my Father I have made known to you. 16You did not choose me, but I chose you and appointed you to go and bear fruit—fruit that will last. Then the Father will give you whatever you ask in my name. 17This is my command: Love each other.
Therefore Roman Catholic church is not violating Jesus Christ Commandments. Because, whomsoever believeth in him shall not perish but have everlasting life. Only by his grace, all of us can be saved.
October 26, 2009
Edit | Reply
dhombiz
Hey mud packTen Commandments are from God the Father which no human being could obey. So God the father sent us his only begotten son, that whosoever believeth in him shall not persih but have everlasting life. In John 15:9-17, Jesus Refers to his commandments not by god the father's commandments.
9“As the Father has loved me, so have I loved you. Now remain in my love. 10If you obey my commands, you will remain in my love, just as I have obeyed my Father’s commands and remain in his love. 11I have told you this so that my joy may be in you and that your joy may be complete. 12My command is this: Love each other as I have loved you. 13Greater love has no one than this, that he lay down his life for his friends. 14You are my friends if you do what I command. 15I no longer call you servants, because a servant does not know his master’s business. Instead, I have called you friends, for everything that I learned from my Father I have made known to you. 16You did not choose me, but I chose you and appointed you to go and bear fruit—fruit that will last. Then the Father will give you whatever you ask in my name. 17This is my command: Love each other.
Therefore Roman Catholic church is not violating Jesus Christ Commandments. Because, whomsoever believeth in him shall not perish but have everlasting life. Only by his grace, all of us can be saved.
Brain Fetus
February 18, 2007
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On being a vegetarian, you don't have to believe in vegetables to be a vegetarian, all you have to do is not eat meat. But being a vegan requires a little bit of insanity.
June 5, 2007
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June 8, 2007
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catholic-muslim-christian
i have been concerned with the times we live in Turkey april this year christians are being killed because they are not muslim,Date: Wednesday, 2 May 2007 7:38 PM
Subject: A letter to the Global Church from The Protestant Church of Smyrna
This past week has been filled with much sorrow. Many of you have heard by now of our devastating loss here in an event that took place in Malatya, a Turkish province 300 miles northeast of Antioch, the city where believers were first called Christians (Acts 11:26).
On Wednesday morning, April 18, 2007, 46 year old German missionary and father of three Tilman Geske prepared to go to his office, kissing his wife goodbye taking a moment to hug his son and give him the priceless memory, "Goodbye, son. I love you."
Tilman rented an office space from Zirve Publishing where he was preparing notes for the new Turkish Study Bible. Zirve was also the location of the Malatya Evangelist Church office. A ministry of the church, Zirve prints and distributes Christian literature to Malatya and nearby cities in Eastern Turkey. In another area of town, 35 year old Pastor Necati Aydin, father of two, said goodbye to his wife, leaving for the office as well. They had a morning Bible Study and prayer meeting that some other believers in town would also be attending. Ugur Yuksel likewise made his way to the Bible study.
None of these three men knew that what awaited them at the Bible study was the ultimate testing and application of their faith, which would conclude with their entrance into glory to receive their crown of righteousness from Christ and honor from all the saints awaiting them in the Lord's presence.
On the other side of town, ten young men all under 20 years old put into place final arrangements for their ultimate act of faith, living out their love for Allah and hatred of infidels who they felt undermined Islam.
On Resurrection Sunday, five of these men had been to a by-invitation-only evangelistic service that Pastor Necati and his men had arranged at a hotel conference room in the city. The men were known to the believers as "seekers." No one knows what happened in the hearts of those men as they listened to the gospel. Were they touched by the Holy Spirit? Were they convicted of sin? Did they hear the gospel in their heart of hearts? Today we only have the beginning of their story.
These young men, one of whom is the son of a mayor in the Province of Malatya, are part of a tarikat, or a group of "faithful believers" in Islam. Tarikat membership is highly respected here; it's like a fraternity membership. In fact, it is said that no one can get into public office without membership in a tarikat. These young men all lived in the same dorm, all preparing for university entrance exams.
The young men got guns, breadknives, ropes and towels ready for their final act of service to Allah. They knew there would be a lot of blood. They arrived in time for the Bible Study, around 10 o'clock.
They arrived, and apparently the Bible Study began. Reportedly, after Necati read a chapter from the Bible the assault began. The boys tied Ugur, Necati, and Tilman's hands and feet to chairs and as they videoed their work on their cellphones, they tortured our brothers for almost three hours*
[Details of the torture--
*Tilman was stabbed 156 times, Necati 99 times and Ugur's stabs were too numerous to count. They were disemboweled, and their intestines sliced up in front of their eyes. They were emasculated and watched as those body parts were destroyed. Fingers were chopped off, their noses and mouths and anuses were sliced open. Possibly the worst part was watching as their brothers were likewise tortured. Finally, their throats were sliced from ear to ear, heads practically decapitated.]
Neighbors in workplaces near the printhouse said later they had heard yelling, but assumed the owners were having a domestic argument so they did not respond.
Meanwhile, another believer Gokhan and his wife had a leisurely morning. He slept in till 10, ate a long breakfast and finally around 12:30 he and his wife arrived at the office. The door was locked from the inside, and his key would not work. He phoned and though it had connection on his end he did not hear the phone ringing inside. He called cell phones of his brothers and finally Ugur answered his phone. "We are not at the office. Go to the hotel meeting. We are there. We will come there," he said cryptically. As Ugur spoke Gokhan heard in the telephone's background weeping and a strange snarling sound.
He phoned the police, and the nearest officer arrived in about five minutes. He pounded on the door, "Police, open up!" Initially the officer thought it was a domestic disturbance. At that point they heard another snarl and a gurgling moan. The police understood that sound as human suffering, prepared the clip in his gun and tried over and over again to burst through the door. One of the frightened assailants unlocked the door for the policeman, who entered to find a grisly scene.
Tilman and Necati had been slaughtered, practically decapitated with their necks slit from ear to ear. Ugur's throat was likewise slit and he was barely alive.
Three assailants in front of the policeman dropped their weapons.
Meanwhile Gokhan heard a sound of yelling in the street. Someone had fallen from their third story office. Running down, he found a man on the ground, whom he later recognized, named Emre Gunaydin. He had massive head trauma and, strangely, was snarling. He had tried to climb down the drainpipe to escape, and losing his balance had plummeted to the ground. It seems that he was the main leader of the attackers. Another assailant was found hiding on a lower balcony.
To untangle the web we need to back up six years. In April 2001, the National Security Council of Turkey (Milli Guvenlik Kurulu) began to consider evangelical Christians as a threat to national security, on equal footing as Al Quaida and PKK terrorism. Statements made in the press by political leaders, columnists and commentators have fueled a hatred against missionaries who they claim bribe young people to change their religion.
After that decision in 2001, attacks and threats on churches, pastors and Christians began. Bombings, physical attacks, verbal and written abuse are only some of the ways Christians are being targetted. Most significant is the use of media propaganda.
From December 2005, after having a long meeting regarding the Christian threat, the wife of Former Prime Minister Ecevit, historian Ilber Ortayli, Professor Hasan Unsal, Politician Ahmet Tan and writer/propogandist Aytunc Altindal, each in their own profession began a campaign to bring the public's attention to the looming threat of Christians who sought to "buy their children's souls". Hidden cameras in churches have taken church service footage and used it sensationally to promote fear and antagonism toward Christianity.
In an official televised response from Ankara, the Interior Minister of Turkey smirked as he spoke of the attacks on our brothers. Amid public outrage and protests against the event and in favor of freedom of religion and freedom of thought, media and official comments ring with the same message, "We hope you have learned your lesson. We do not want Christians here."
It appears that this was an organized attack initiated by an unknown adult tarikat leader. As in the Hrant Dink murder in January 2007, and a Catholic priest Andrea Santoro in February 2006, minors are being used to commit religious murders because public sympathy for youth is strong and they face lower penalties than an adult convicted of the same crime. Even the parents of these children are in favor of the acts. The mother of the 16 year old boy who killed the Catholic priest Andrea Santoro looked at the cameras as her son was going to prison and said, "he will serve time for Allah."
The young men involved in the killing are currently in custody. Today news reported that they would be tried as terrorists, so their age would not affect the strict penalty. Assailant Emre Gunaydin is still in intensive care. The investigation centers around him and his contacts and they say will fall apart if he does not recover.
The Church in Turkey responded in a way that honored God as hundreds of believers and dozens of pastors flew in as fast as they could to stand by the small church of Malatya and encourage the believers, take care of legal issues, and represent Christians to the media.
When Susanne Tilman expressed her wish to bury her husband in Malatya, the Governor tried to stop it, and when he realized he could not stop it, a rumor was spread that "it is a sin to dig a grave for a Christian." In the end, in an undertaking that should be remembered in Christian history forever, the men from the church in Adana (near Tarsus), grabbed shovels and dug a grave for their slain brother in an un-tended hundred year old Armenian graveyard.
Ugur was buried by his family in an Alevi Muslim ceremony in his hometown of Elazig, his believing fiance watching from the shadows as his family and friends refused to accept in death the faith Ugur had so long professed and died for.
Necati's funeral took place in his hometown of Izmir, the city where he came to faith. The darkness does not understand the light. Though the churches expressed their forgiveness for the event, Christians were not to be trusted. Before they would load the coffin onto the plane from Malatya, it went through two separate xray exams to make sure it was not loaded with explosives. This is not a usual procedure for Muslim coffins.
Necati's funeral was a beautiful event. Like a glimpse of heaven, thousands of Turkish Christians and missionaries came to show their love for Christ, and their honor for this man chosen to die for Christ. Necati's wife Shemsa told the world, "His death was full of meaning, because he died for Christ and he lived for Christ. Necati was a gift from God. I feel honored that he was in my life, I feel crowned with honor. I want to be worthy of that honor."
Boldly the believers took their stand at Necati's funeral, facing the risks of being seen publicly and likewise becoming targets. As expected, the anti-terror police attended and videotaped everyone attending the funeral for their future use. The service took place outside at Buca Baptist church, and he was buried in a small Christian graveyard in the outskirts of Izmir.
Two assistant Governors of Izmir were there solemnly watching the event from the front row. Dozens of news agencies were there documenting the events with live news and photographs. Who knows the impact the funeral had on those watching? This is the beginning of their story as well. Pray for them.
In an act that hit front pages in the largest newspapers in Turkey, Susanne Tilman in a television interview expressed her forgiveness. She did not want revenge, she told reporters. "Oh God, forgive them for they know not what they do," she said, wholeheartedly agreeing with the words of Christ on Calvary (Luke 23:34).
In a country where blood-for-blood revenge is as normal as breathing, many many reports have come to the attention of the church of how this comment of Susanne Tilman has changed lives. One columnist wrote of her comment, "She said in one sentence what 1000 missionaries in 1000 years could never do."
The missionaries in Malatya will most likely move out, as their families and children have become publicly identified as targets to the hostile city. The remaining 10 believers are in hiding. What will happen to this church, this light in the darkness? Most likely it will go underground. Pray for wisdom, that Turkish brothers from other cities will go to lead the leaderless church. Should we not be concerned for that great city of Malatya, a city that does not know what it is doing? (Jonah 4:11)
When our Pastor Fikret Bocek went with a brother to give a statement to the Security Directorate on Monday they were ushered into the Anti-Terror Department. On the wall was a huge chart covering the whole wall listing all the terrorist cells in Izmir, categorized. In one prominent column were listed all the evangelical churches in Izmir. The darkness does not understand the light. "These that have turned the world upside down are come hither also." (Acts 17:6)
Please pray for the Church in Turkey. "Don't pray against persecution, pray for perseverence," urges Pastor Fikret Bocek.
The Church is better having lost our brothers; the fruit in our lives, the renewed faith, the burning desire to spread the gospel to quench more darkness in Malatya .all these are not to be regretted. Pray that we stand strong against external opposition and especially pray that we stand strong against internal struggles with sin, our true debilitating weakness.
This we know. Christ Jesus was there when our brothers were giving their lives for Him. He was there, like He was when Stephen was being stoned in the sight of Saul of Tarsus.
Someday the video of the deaths of our brothers may reveal more to us about the strength that we know Christ gave them to endure their last cross, about the peace the Spirit of God endowed them with to suffer for their beloved Savior. But we know He did not leave their side. We know their minds were full of Scripture strengthening them to endure, as darkness tried to subdue the unsubduable Light of the Gospel. We know, in whatever way they were able, with a look or a word, they encouraged one another to stand strong. We know they knew they would soon be with Christ.
We don't know the details. We don't know the kind of justice that will or will not be served on this earth.
But we pray-- and urge you to pray-- that someday at least one of those five boys will come to faith because of the testimony in death of Tilman Geske, who gave his life as a missionary to his beloved Turks, and the testimonies in death of Necati Aydin and Ugur Yuksel, the first martyrs for Christ out of the Turkish Church.
Reported by Darlene N. Bocek (24 April 2007)
Please please please pass this on to as many praying Christians as you can, in as many countries as you can.
not to long ago christians were being killed for reading the bible by the catholic church;
the pope kissed the the muslim bible mid last year http://www.cephasministry.com:80/world_pope_black_magick.html
http://www.chick.com/reading/tracts/0071/0071_01.asp
TeChNoWC
June 10, 2007
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Seshat Kitty
January 31, 2008
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February 23, 2008
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Molzahn
April 23, 2008
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Hey cowardly Catholic
Try some witty insults next time, I hear it might alleviate those homo-erotic fantasies of yours.Molzahn
April 23, 2008
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Hey cowardly Catholic
Try some witty insults next time, I hear it might alleviate those homo-erotic fantasies of yours.July 25, 2008
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The first commandment is not breached when there is prayer to saints
What is your definition of 'communion of saints'? It has changed since the Reformation. There is a communion of saints; saints that have died on earth are not 'dead' saints, they are more alive than you or I. And they can pray for us to the Lord, they indeed can hear our prayers. In the book of Revelation, the saints in heaven carry the prayers of the saints on earth to the Lord in the form of incense.July 25, 2008
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you contradict yourself
the apostles told Christains to pray for one another - are you making yourself an intercessor if you pray for your loved ones?July 25, 2008
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Christ's Chruch
Jesus built HIS Church on the rock of Peter(petros/cephas - means 'rock'). Jesus established the one Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church. 'and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it' and 'i will give you the keys to the kingdom of heaven, that whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven'. And Peter has successors, and he appointed Bishops(e.g. St. Ignatious of Antioch) and the Catholic CHurch of Jesus Christ compiled the Bible in the 4th century. And the reformers 1,500 years later decided to make up their own beliefs and chop up the Bible until it fit those beliefs. I agree, God is not the author of confusion, the Christian faith remained unchanged(in the face of all concievable heresy and corruption within its own churches) until a bunch of 'Reformers' decided that they would be their own authority(essentially making themselves thier own 'popes').mudgod
September 15, 2008
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http://members.aol.com/KHoeck2/notes.html
October 12, 2008
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Sabbath-worshipers.
October 12, 2008
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Sabbath-worshipers.
October 12, 2008
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Sabbath-worshipers.
October 12, 2008
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Sabbath-worshipers.
January 11, 2009
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Imagine declaring that you would make a half court basket in basketball while blindfolded, at the same time pointing one finger from your right hand touching the tip of your nose, your left foot touching your right knee facing away from the basket you are aiming for, while teaching your mom about how to use UNIX with bluetooth and MAKE THE SHOT FOR EVERYTHING YOU HAVE(money, cloths, cars...etc). It would take a miracle to say that you would make it, and actually making it.
FYI, you can also see a difference in the fact that Jesus resurrected Lazarus :]
January 11, 2009
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Imagine declaring that you would make a half court basket in basketball while blindfolded, at the same time pointing one finger from your right hand touching the tip of your nose, your left foot touching your right knee facing away from the basket you are aiming for, while teaching your mom about how to use UNIX with bluetooth and MAKE THE SHOT FOR EVERYTHING YOU HAVE(money, cloths, cars...etc). It would take a miracle to say that you would make it, and actually making it.
FYI, you can also see a difference in the fact that Jesus resurrected Lazarus :]
January 11, 2009
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Imagine declaring that you would make a half court basket in basketball while blindfolded, at the same time pointing one finger from your right hand touching the tip of your nose, your left foot touching your right knee facing away from the basket you are aiming for, while teaching your mom about how to use UNIX with bluetooth and MAKE THE SHOT FOR EVERYTHING YOU HAVE(money, cloths, cars...etc). It would take a miracle to say that you would make it, and actually making it.
FYI, you can also see a difference in the fact that Jesus resurrected Lazarus :]
January 11, 2009
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.
Lazarus got resurrected, then he died again. Jesus died for our sins, and resurrected in 3 days and rise to heaven, just as he said he would...Imagine declaring that you would make a half court basket in basketball while blindfolded, at the same time pointing one finger from your right hand touching the tip of your nose, your left foot touching your right knee facing away from the basket you are aiming for, while teaching your mom about how to use UNIX with bluetooth and MAKE THE SHOT FOR EVERYTHING YOU HAVE(money, cloths, cars...etc). It would take a miracle to say that you would make it, and actually making it.
FYI, you can also see a difference in the fact that Jesus resurrected Lazarus :]
mudgod
January 11, 2009
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mudgod
January 11, 2009
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January 11, 2009
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Good points.
Almost everything you said was true.and you definitely know what you're talking about.
I especially like your first point.
There is one thing I'm going to have to disagree with you on. You said that Faith is all that we need and that we are not known by our works.
Rev 14:13 says this: And I heard a voice from heaven, saying, "Write, 'Blessed are the dead who die in the Lord from now on!'" "Yes," says the Spirit, "so that they may rest from their labors, for their deeds follow with them."
note the last line especially.
i can give you other passages if you'd like.
I am absolutely not saying that faith isn't absolutely necessary, but what about baptism?
This has been a huge debate for a while and still is.
note these passages::
Mar 10:39 They said to Him, "We are able." And Jesus said to them, "The cup that I drink you shall drink; and you shall be baptized with the baptism with which I am baptized.
-and-
Rom 6:4 Therefore we have been buried with Him through baptism into death, so that as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, so we too might walk in newness of life.
thanks, abby (:
January 11, 2009
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Good points.
Almost everything you said was true.and you definitely know what you're talking about.
I especially like your first point.
There is one thing I'm going to have to disagree with you on. You said that Faith is all that we need and that we are not known by our works.
Rev 14:13 says this: And I heard a voice from heaven, saying, "Write, 'Blessed are the dead who die in the Lord from now on!'" "Yes," says the Spirit, "so that they may rest from their labors, for their deeds follow with them."
note the last line especially.
i can give you other passages if you'd like.
I am absolutely not saying that faith isn't absolutely necessary, but what about baptism?
This has been a huge debate for a while and still is.
note these passages::
Mar 10:39 They said to Him, "We are able." And Jesus said to them, "The cup that I drink you shall drink; and you shall be baptized with the baptism with which I am baptized.
-and-
Rom 6:4 Therefore we have been buried with Him through baptism into death, so that as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, so we too might walk in newness of life.
thanks, abby (:
January 11, 2009
Edit | Reply
Good points.
Almost everything you said was true.and you definitely know what you're talking about.
I especially like your first point.
There is one thing I'm going to have to disagree with you on. You said that Faith is all that we need and that we are not known by our works.
Rev 14:13 says this: And I heard a voice from heaven, saying, "Write, 'Blessed are the dead who die in the Lord from now on!'" "Yes," says the Spirit, "so that they may rest from their labors, for their deeds follow with them."
note the last line especially.
i can give you other passages if you'd like.
I am absolutely not saying that faith isn't absolutely necessary, but what about baptism?
This has been a huge debate for a while and still is.
note these passages::
Mar 10:39 They said to Him, "We are able." And Jesus said to them, "The cup that I drink you shall drink; and you shall be baptized with the baptism with which I am baptized.
-and-
Rom 6:4 Therefore we have been buried with Him through baptism into death, so that as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, so we too might walk in newness of life.
thanks, abby (:
January 11, 2009
Edit | Reply
Good points.
Almost everything you said was true.and you definitely know what you're talking about.
I especially like your first point.
There is one thing I'm going to have to disagree with you on. You said that Faith is all that we need and that we are not known by our works.
Rev 14:13 says this: And I heard a voice from heaven, saying, "Write, 'Blessed are the dead who die in the Lord from now on!'" "Yes," says the Spirit, "so that they may rest from their labors, for their deeds follow with them."
note the last line especially.
i can give you other passages if you'd like.
I am absolutely not saying that faith isn't absolutely necessary, but what about baptism?
This has been a huge debate for a while and still is.
note these passages::
Mar 10:39 They said to Him, "We are able." And Jesus said to them, "The cup that I drink you shall drink; and you shall be baptized with the baptism with which I am baptized.
-and-
Rom 6:4 Therefore we have been buried with Him through baptism into death, so that as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, so we too might walk in newness of life.
thanks, abby (:
January 11, 2009
Edit | Reply
Good points.
Almost everything you said was true.and you definitely know what you're talking about.
I especially like your first point.
There is one thing I'm going to have to disagree with you on. You said that Faith is all that we need and that we are not known by our works.
Rev 14:13 says this: And I heard a voice from heaven, saying, "Write, 'Blessed are the dead who die in the Lord from now on!'" "Yes," says the Spirit, "so that they may rest from their labors, for their deeds follow with them."
note the last line especially.
i can give you other passages if you'd like.
I am absolutely not saying that faith isn't absolutely necessary, but what about baptism?
This has been a huge debate for a while and still is.
note these passages::
Mar 10:39 They said to Him, "We are able." And Jesus said to them, "The cup that I drink you shall drink; and you shall be baptized with the baptism with which I am baptized.
-and-
Rom 6:4 Therefore we have been buried with Him through baptism into death, so that as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, so we too might walk in newness of life.
thanks, abby (:
January 11, 2009
Edit | Reply
Good points.
Almost everything you said was true.and you definitely know what you're talking about.
I especially like your first point.
There is one thing I'm going to have to disagree with you on. You said that Faith is all that we need and that we are not known by our works.
Rev 14:13 says this: And I heard a voice from heaven, saying, "Write, 'Blessed are the dead who die in the Lord from now on!'" "Yes," says the Spirit, "so that they may rest from their labors, for their deeds follow with them."
note the last line especially.
i can give you other passages if you'd like.
I am absolutely not saying that faith isn't absolutely necessary, but what about baptism?
This has been a huge debate for a while and still is.
note these passages::
Mar 10:39 They said to Him, "We are able." And Jesus said to them, "The cup that I drink you shall drink; and you shall be baptized with the baptism with which I am baptized.
-and-
Rom 6:4 Therefore we have been buried with Him through baptism into death, so that as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, so we too might walk in newness of life.
thanks, abby (:
January 11, 2009
Edit | Reply
Good points.
Almost everything you said was true.and you definitely know what you're talking about.
I especially like your first point.
There is one thing I'm going to have to disagree with you on. You said that Faith is all that we need and that we are not known by our works.
Rev 14:13 says this: And I heard a voice from heaven, saying, "Write, 'Blessed are the dead who die in the Lord from now on!'" "Yes," says the Spirit, "so that they may rest from their labors, for their deeds follow with them."
note the last line especially.
i can give you other passages if you'd like.
I am absolutely not saying that faith isn't absolutely necessary, but what about baptism?
This has been a huge debate for a while and still is.
note these passages::
Mar 10:39 They said to Him, "We are able." And Jesus said to them, "The cup that I drink you shall drink; and you shall be baptized with the baptism with which I am baptized.
-and-
Rom 6:4 Therefore we have been buried with Him through baptism into death, so that as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, so we too might walk in newness of life.
thanks, abby (:
January 11, 2009
Edit | Reply
and you definitely know what you're talking about.
I especially like your first point.
There is one thing I'm going to have to disagree with you on. You said that Faith is all that we need and that we are not known by our works.
Rev 14:13 says this: And I heard a voice from heaven, saying, "Write, 'Blessed are the dead who die in the Lord from now on!'" "Yes," says the Spirit, "so that they may rest from their labors, for their deeds follow with them."
note the last line especially.
i can give you other passages if you'd like.
I am absolutely not saying that faith isn't absolutely necessary, but what about baptism?
This has been a huge debate for a while and still is.
note these passages::
Mar 10:39 They said to Him, "We are able." And Jesus said to them, "The cup that I drink you shall drink; and you shall be baptized with the baptism with which I am baptized.
-and-
Rom 6:4 Therefore we have been buried with Him through baptism into death, so that as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, so we too might walk in newness of life.
thanks, abby (:
January 11, 2009
Edit | Reply
Good points.
Almost everything you said was true.and you definitely know what you're talking about.
I especially like your first point.
There is one thing I'm going to have to disagree with you on. You said that Faith is all that we need and that we are not known by our works.
Rev 14:13 says this: And I heard a voice from heaven, saying, "Write, 'Blessed are the dead who die in the Lord from now on!'" "Yes," says the Spirit, "so that they may rest from their labors, for their deeds follow with them."
note the last line especially.
i can give you other passages if you'd like.
I am absolutely not saying that faith isn't absolutely necessary, but what about baptism?
This has been a huge debate for a while and still is.
note these passages::
Mar 10:39 They said to Him, "We are able." And Jesus said to them, "The cup that I drink you shall drink; and you shall be baptized with the baptism with which I am baptized.
-and-
Rom 6:4 Therefore we have been buried with Him through baptism into death, so that as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, so we too might walk in newness of life.
thanks, abby (:
January 11, 2009
Edit | Reply
Good points.
Almost everything you said was true.and you definitely know what you're talking about.
I especially like your first point.
There is one thing I'm going to have to disagree with you on. You said that Faith is all that we need and that we are not known by our works.
Rev 14:13 says this: And I heard a voice from heaven, saying, "Write, 'Blessed are the dead who die in the Lord from now on!'" "Yes," says the Spirit, "so that they may rest from their labors, for their deeds follow with them."
note the last line especially.
i can give you other passages if you'd like.
I am absolutely not saying that faith isn't absolutely necessary, but what about baptism?
This has been a huge debate for a while and still is.
note these passages::
Mar 10:39 They said to Him, "We are able." And Jesus said to them, "The cup that I drink you shall drink; and you shall be baptized with the baptism with which I am baptized.
-and-
Rom 6:4 Therefore we have been buried with Him through baptism into death, so that as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, so we too might walk in newness of life.
thanks, abby (:
January 11, 2009
Edit | Reply
Good points.
Almost everything you said was true.and you definitely know what you're talking about.
I especially like your first point.
There is one thing I'm going to have to disagree with you on. You said that Faith is all that we need and that we are not known by our works.
Rev 14:13 says this: And I heard a voice from heaven, saying, "Write, 'Blessed are the dead who die in the Lord from now on!'" "Yes," says the Spirit, "so that they may rest from their labors, for their deeds follow with them."
note the last line especially.
i can give you other passages if you'd like.
I am absolutely not saying that faith isn't absolutely necessary, but what about baptism?
This has been a huge debate for a while and still is.
note these passages::
Mar 10:39 They said to Him, "We are able." And Jesus said to them, "The cup that I drink you shall drink; and you shall be baptized with the baptism with which I am baptized.
-and-
Rom 6:4 Therefore we have been buried with Him through baptism into death, so that as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, so we too might walk in newness of life.
thanks, abby (:
January 11, 2009
Edit | Reply
Good points.
Almost everything you said was true.and you definitely know what you're talking about.
I especially like your first point.
There is one thing I'm going to have to disagree with you on. You said that Faith is all that we need and that we are not known by our works.
Rev 14:13 says this: And I heard a voice from heaven, saying, "Write, 'Blessed are the dead who die in the Lord from now on!'" "Yes," says the Spirit, "so that they may rest from their labors, for their deeds follow with them."
note the last line especially.
i can give you other passages if you'd like.
I am absolutely not saying that faith isn't absolutely necessary, but what about baptism?
This has been a huge debate for a while and still is.
note these passages::
Mar 10:39 They said to Him, "We are able." And Jesus said to them, "The cup that I drink you shall drink; and you shall be baptized with the baptism with which I am baptized.
-and-
Rom 6:4 Therefore we have been buried with Him through baptism into death, so that as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, so we too might walk in newness of life.
thanks, abby (:
January 11, 2009
Edit | Reply
Good points.
Almost everything you said was true.and you definitely know what you're talking about.
I especially like your first point.
There is one thing I'm going to have to disagree with you on. You said that Faith is all that we need and that we are not known by our works.
Rev 14:13 says this: And I heard a voice from heaven, saying, "Write, 'Blessed are the dead who die in the Lord from now on!'" "Yes," says the Spirit, "so that they may rest from their labors, for their deeds follow with them."
note the last line especially.
i can give you other passages if you'd like.
I am absolutely not saying that faith isn't absolutely necessary, but what about baptism?
This has been a huge debate for a while and still is.
note these passages::
Mar 10:39 They said to Him, "We are able." And Jesus said to them, "The cup that I drink you shall drink; and you shall be baptized with the baptism with which I am baptized.
-and-
Rom 6:4 Therefore we have been buried with Him through baptism into death, so that as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, so we too might walk in newness of life.
thanks, abby (:
January 11, 2009
Edit | Reply
and you definitely know what you're talking about.
I especially like your first point.
There is one thing I'm going to have to disagree with you on. You said that Faith is all that we need and that we are not known by our works.
Rev 14:13 says this: And I heard a voice from heaven, saying, "Write, 'Blessed are the dead who die in the Lord from now on!'" "Yes," says the Spirit, "so that they may rest from their labors, for their deeds follow with them."
note the last line especially.
i can give you other passages if you'd like.
I am absolutely not saying that faith isn't absolutely necessary, but what about baptism?
This has been a huge debate for a while and still is.
note these passages::
Mar 10:39 They said to Him, "We are able." And Jesus said to them, "The cup that I drink you shall drink; and you shall be baptized with the baptism with which I am baptized.
-and-
Rom 6:4 Therefore we have been buried with Him through baptism into death, so that as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, so we too might walk in newness of life.
thanks, abby (:
June 13, 2009
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:)
Yes there is a difference. Jesus never taught to pray to other "saints". Jesus never taught that you pray to his mother. The catholics will say that they are "asking" for the saint or whoever to intercede for them when Jesus clearly said that HE is the way, the truth, and the life. This is the main difference that I have noticed. Catholics were NOT the first Christians, the Christians who were with Him were the first ones. The catholics did not come along until the Romans figured out it would be handy to control the Christians and put together their form of "worship".July 3, 2009
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This is pointless.
Seriously. You're all arguing about things that cannot be proven by science or any physical evidence. And, if Mary was God's mother, wouldn't that be incest, in some way, if we're all the sons and daughters of God? I mean, the Holy Spirit (who is God) came upon Mary...his daughter, and got her pregnant? That's awkward.And without a biological father, Jesus would only have half the chromosomal pairs he would need to be human, and therefore...not be human...and extremely messed up on a cellular level. I mean, Downs patients only have one extra chromosome (47), and look what happens to them, imagine if a person only had 23.
So, yeah. Honestly, this is all crap. The point of this is to imitate the life of a kind, generous, and selfless man to become a better person and make the world a better place, not to quibble over useless details that cannot be proven either way. (The Devil is in the details.)
October 26, 2009
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The Holy Eucharist:
The Holy Gospel of Jesus Christ according to St. John
6 56 For my flesh is meat indeed: and my blood is drink indeed.
6 57 He that eateth my flesh and drinketh my blood abideth in me: and I in him.
6 61 Many therefore of his disciples, hearing it, said: This saying is hard; and who can hear it?
6 62 But Jesus, knowing in himself that his disciples murmured at this, said to them: Doth this scandalize you?
THE FIRST EPISTLE OF ST. PAUL TO THE CORINTHIANS
11 26 For as often as you shall eat this bread and drink the chalice, you shall shew the death of the Lord, until he come.
11 27 Therefore, whosoever shall eat this bread, or drink the chalice of the Lord unworthily, shall be guilty of the body and of the blood of the Lord.
11 28 But let a man prove himself: and so let him eat of that bread and drink of the chalice.
11 29 For he that eateth and drinketh unworthily eateth and drinketh judgment to himself, not discerning the body of the Lord.
Let me ask to something: you can bring judgement upon yourself for not discerning a SYMBOL? When St. Paul says "For as often as you shall eat this bread and drink the chalice, you shall shew the death of the Lord, until he come" this describes the Catholic mass.
October 26, 2009
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The Holy Eucharist:
The Holy Gospel of Jesus Christ according to St. John
6 56 For my flesh is meat indeed: and my blood is drink indeed.
6 57 He that eateth my flesh and drinketh my blood abideth in me: and I in him.
6 61 Many therefore of his disciples, hearing it, said: This saying is hard; and who can hear it?
6 62 But Jesus, knowing in himself that his disciples murmured at this, said to them: Doth this scandalize you?
THE FIRST EPISTLE OF ST. PAUL TO THE CORINTHIANS
11 26 For as often as you shall eat this bread and drink the chalice, you shall shew the death of the Lord, until he come.
11 27 Therefore, whosoever shall eat this bread, or drink the chalice of the Lord unworthily, shall be guilty of the body and of the blood of the Lord.
11 28 But let a man prove himself: and so let him eat of that bread and drink of the chalice.
11 29 For he that eateth and drinketh unworthily eateth and drinketh judgment to himself, not discerning the body of the Lord.
Let me ask to something: you can bring judgement upon yourself for not discerning a SYMBOL? When St. Paul says "For as often as you shall eat this bread and drink the chalice, you shall shew the death of the Lord, until he come" this describes the Catholic mass.
February 3
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"Do not put yout trust in the nobles nor in the son of the earthling man, to whom no salvation belongs"- pslam 146:3
Jesus is not God. Jesus is son of God. Jesus even claimed in the bible that there is only one greater than anyone else (including Jesus) and thats God and God has a name.. it was stated in the bible that his name is Yahweh. So i would agree to werock. Mary gave birth to the Son of God, Jesus... People should read the scripture rather depending on their own understanding....February 18
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right on
Trinity is a pagan belief. catholics need to study history of an early churchHow Did the Trinity Doctrine Develop?
AT THIS point you might ask: ‘If the Trinity is not a Biblical teaching, how did it become a doctrine of Christendom?’ Many think that it was formulated at the Council of Nicaea in 325 C.E.
That is not totally correct, however. The Council of Nicaea did assert that Christ was of the same substance as God, which laid the groundwork for later Trinitarian theology. But it did not establish the Trinity, for at that council there was no mention of the holy spirit as the third person of a triune Godhead.
Constantine’s Role at Nicaea
FOR many years, there had been much opposition on Biblical grounds to the developing idea that Jesus was God. To try to solve the dispute, Roman emperor Constantine summoned all bishops to Nicaea. About 300, a fraction of the total, actually attended.
Constantine was not a Christian. Supposedly, he converted later in life, but he was not baptized until he lay dying. Regarding him, Henry Chadwick says in The Early Church: “Constantine, like his father, worshipped the Unconquered Sun; . . . his conversion should not be interpreted as an inward experience of grace . . . It was a military matter. His comprehension of Christian doctrine was never very clear, but he was sure that victory in battle lay in the gift of the God of the Christians.”
What role did this unbaptized emperor play at the Council of Nicaea? The Encyclopædia Britannica relates: “Constantine himself presided, actively guiding the discussions, and personally proposed . . . the crucial formula expressing the relation of Christ to God in the creed issued by the council, ‘of one substance with the Father’ . . . Overawed by the emperor, the bishops, with two exceptions only, signed the creed, many of them much against their inclination.”
Hence, Constantine’s role was crucial. After two months of furious religious debate, this pagan politician intervened and decided in favor of those who said that Jesus was God. But why? Certainly not because of any Biblical conviction. “Constantine had basically no understanding whatsoever of the questions that were being asked in Greek theology,” says A Short History of Christian Doctrine. What he did understand was that religious division was a threat to his empire, and he wanted to solidify his domain.
None of the bishops at Nicaea promoted a Trinity, however. They decided only the nature of Jesus but not the role of the holy spirit. If a Trinity had been a clear Bible truth, should they not have proposed it at that time?
Further Development
AFTER Nicaea, debates on the subject continued for decades. Those who believed that Jesus was not equal to God even came back into favor for a time. But later Emperor Theodosius decided against them. He established the creed of the Council of Nicaea as the standard for his realm and convened the Council of Constantinople in 381 C.E. to clarify the formula.
That council agreed to place the holy spirit on the same level as God and Christ. For the first time, Christendom’s Trinity began to come into focus.
Yet, even after the Council of Constantinople, the Trinity did not become a widely accepted creed. Many opposed it and thus brought on themselves violent persecution. It was only in later centuries that the Trinity was formulated into set creeds. The Encyclopedia Americana notes: “The full development of Trinitarianism took place in the West, in the Scholasticism of the Middle Ages, when an explanation was undertaken in terms of philosophy and psychology.”
The Athanasian Creed
THE Trinity was defined more fully in the Athanasian Creed. Athanasius was a clergyman who supported Constantine at Nicaea. The creed that bears his name declares: “We worship one God in Trinity . . . The Father is God, the Son is God, and the Holy Ghost is God; and yet they are not three gods, but one God.”
Well-informed scholars agree, however, that Athanasius did not compose this creed. The New Encyclopædia Britannica comments: “The creed was unknown to the Eastern Church until the 12th century. Since the 17th century, scholars have generally agreed that the Athanasian Creed was not written by Athanasius (died 373) but was probably composed in southern France during the 5th century. . . . The creed’s influence seems to have been primarily in southern France and Spain in the 6th and 7th centuries. It was used in the liturgy of the church in Germany in the 9th century and somewhat later in Rome.”
So it took centuries from the time of Christ for the Trinity to become widely accepted in Christendom. And in all of this, what guided the decisions? Was it the Word of God, or was it clerical and political considerations? In Origin and Evolution of Religion, E. W. Hopkins answers: “The final orthodox definition of the trinity was largely a matter of church politics.”
Apostasy Foretold
THIS disreputable history of the Trinity fits in with what Jesus and his apostles foretold would follow their time. They said that there would be an apostasy, a deviation, a falling away from true worship until Christ’s return, when true worship would be restored before God’s day of destruction of this system of things.
Regarding that “day,” the apostle Paul said: “It will not come unless the apostasy comes first and the man of lawlessness gets revealed.” (2 Thessalonians 2:3, 7) Later, he foretold: “When I have gone fierce wolves will invade you and will have no mercy on the flock. Even from your own ranks there will be men coming forward with a travesty of the truth on their lips to induce the disciples to follow them.” (Acts 20:29, 30, JB) Other disciples of Jesus also wrote of this apostasy with its ‘lawless’ clergy class.—See, for example, 2 Peter 2:1; 1 John 4:1-3; Jude 3, 4.
Paul also wrote: “The time is sure to come when, far from being content with sound teaching, people will be avid for the latest novelty and collect themselves a whole series of teachers according to their own tastes; and then, instead of listening to the truth, they will turn to myths.”—2 Timothy 4:3, 4, JB.
Jesus himself explained what was behind this falling away from true worship. He said that he had sowed good seeds but that the enemy, Satan, would oversow the field with weeds. So along with the first blades of wheat, the weeds appeared also. Thus, a deviation from pure Christianity was to be expected until the harvest, when Christ would set matters right. (Matthew 13:24-43) The Encyclopedia Americana comments: “Fourth century Trinitarianism did not reflect accurately early Christian teaching regarding the nature of God; it was, on the contrary, a deviation from this teaching.” Where, then, did this deviation originate?—1 Timothy 1:6.
What Influenced It
THROUGHOUT the ancient world, as far back as Babylonia, the worship of pagan gods grouped in threes, or triads, was common. That influence was also prevalent in Egypt, Greece, and Rome in the centuries before, during, and after Christ. And after the death of the apostles, such pagan beliefs began to invade Christianity.
Historian Will Durant observed: “Christianity did not destroy paganism; it adopted it. . . . From Egypt came the ideas of a divine trinity.” And in the book Egyptian Religion, Siegfried Morenz notes: “The trinity was a major preoccupation of Egyptian theologians . . . Three gods are combined and treated as a single being, addressed in the singular. In this way the spiritual force of Egyptian religion shows a direct link with Christian theology.”
Thus, in Alexandria, Egypt, churchmen of the late third and early fourth centuries, such as Athanasius, reflected this influence as they formulated ideas that led to the Trinity. Their own influence spread, so that Morenz considers “Alexandrian theology as the intermediary between the Egyptian religious heritage and Christianity.”
In the preface to Edward Gibbon’s History of Christianity, we read: “If Paganism was conquered by Christianity, it is equally true that Christianity was corrupted by Paganism. The pure Deism of the first Christians . . . was changed, by the Church of Rome, into the incomprehensible dogma of the trinity. Many of the pagan tenets, invented by the Egyptians and idealized by Plato, were retained as being worthy of belief.”
A Dictionary of Religious Knowledge notes that many say that the Trinity “is a corruption borrowed from the heathen religions, and ingrafted on the Christian faith.” And The Paganism in Our Christianity declares: “The origin of the [Trinity] is entirely pagan.”
That is why, in the Encyclopædia of Religion and Ethics, James Hastings wrote: “In Indian religion, e.g., we meet with the trinitarian group of Brahmā, Siva, and Viṣṇu; and in Egyptian religion with the trinitarian group of Osiris, Isis, and Horus . . . Nor is it only in historical religions that we find God viewed as a Trinity. One recalls in particular the Neo-Platonic view of the Supreme or Ultimate Reality,” which is “triadically represented.” What does the Greek philosopher Plato have to do with the Trinity?
Platonism
PLATO, it is thought, lived from 428 to 347 before Christ. While he did not teach the Trinity in its present form, his philosophies paved the way for it. Later, philosophical movements that included triadic beliefs sprang up, and these were influenced by Plato’s ideas of God and nature.
The French Nouveau Dictionnaire Universel (New Universal Dictionary) says of Plato’s influence: “The Platonic trinity, itself merely a rearrangement of older trinities dating back to earlier peoples, appears to be the rational philosophic trinity of attributes that gave birth to the three hypostases or divine persons taught by the Christian churches. . . . This Greek philosopher’s conception of the divine trinity . . . can be found in all the ancient [pagan] religions.”
The New Schaff-Herzog Encyclopedia of Religious Knowledge shows the influence of this Greek philosophy: “The doctrines of the Logos and the Trinity received their shape from Greek Fathers, who . . . were much influenced, directly or indirectly, by the Platonic philosophy . . . That errors and corruptions crept into the Church from this source can not be denied.”
The Church of the First Three Centuries says: “The doctrine of the Trinity was of gradual and comparatively late formation; . . . it had its origin in a source entirely foreign from that of the Jewish and Christian Scriptures; . . . it grew up, and was ingrafted on Christianity, through the hands of the Platonizing Fathers.”
By the end of the third century C.E., “Christianity” and the new Platonic philosophies became inseparably united. As Adolf Harnack states in Outlines of the History of Dogma, church doctrine became “firmly rooted in the soil of Hellenism [pagan Greek thought]. Thereby it became a mystery to the great majority of Christians.”
The church claimed that its new doctrines were based on the Bible. But Harnack says: “In reality it legitimized in its midst the Hellenic speculation, the superstitious views and customs of pagan mystery-worship.”
In the book A Statement of Reasons, Andrews Norton says of the Trinity: “We can trace the history of this doctrine, and discover its source, not in the Christian revelation, but in the Platonic philosophy . . . The Trinity is not a doctrine of Christ and his Apostles, but a fiction of the school of the later Platonists.”
Thus, in the fourth century C.E., the apostasy foretold by Jesus and the apostles came into full bloom. Development of the Trinity was just one evidence of this. The apostate churches also began embracing other pagan ideas, such as hellfire, immortality of the soul, and idolatry. Spiritually speaking, Christendom had entered its foretold dark ages, dominated by a growing “man of lawlessness” clergy class.—2 Thessalonians 2:3, 7.
Why Did God’s Prophets Not Teach It?
WHY, for thousands of years, did none of God’s prophets teach his people about the Trinity? At the latest, would Jesus not use his ability as the Great Teacher to make the Trinity clear to his followers? Would God inspire hundreds of pages of Scripture and yet not use any of this instruction to teach the Trinity if it were the “central doctrine” of faith?
Are Christians to believe that centuries after Christ and after having inspired the writing of the Bible, God would back the formulation of a doctrine that was unknown to his servants for thousands of years, one that is an “inscrutable mystery” “beyond the grasp of human reason,” one that admittedly had a pagan background and was “largely a matter of church politics”?
The testimony of history is clear: The Trinity teaching is a deviation from the truth, an apostatizing from it.
February 18
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Trinity is a pagan belief. catholics need to study history of an early churchHow Did the Trinity Doctrine Develop?
AT THIS point you might ask: ‘If the Trinity is not a Biblical teaching, how did it become a doctrine of Christendom?’ Many think that it was formulated at the Council of Nicaea in 325 C.E.
That is not totally correct, however. The Council of Nicaea did assert that Christ was of the same substance as God, which laid the groundwork for later Trinitarian theology. But it did not establish the Trinity, for at that council there was no mention of the holy spirit as the third person of a triune Godhead.
Constantine’s Role at Nicaea
FOR many years, there had been much opposition on Biblical grounds to the developing idea that Jesus was God. To try to solve the dispute, Roman emperor Constantine summoned all bishops to Nicaea. About 300, a fraction of the total, actually attended.
Constantine was not a Christian. Supposedly, he converted later in life, but he was not baptized until he lay dying. Regarding him, Henry Chadwick says in The Early Church: “Constantine, like his father, worshipped the Unconquered Sun; . . . his conversion should not be interpreted as an inward experience of grace . . . It was a military matter. His comprehension of Christian doctrine was never very clear, but he was sure that victory in battle lay in the gift of the God of the Christians.”
What role did this unbaptized emperor play at the Council of Nicaea? The Encyclopædia Britannica relates: “Constantine himself presided, actively guiding the discussions, and personally proposed . . . the crucial formula expressing the relation of Christ to God in the creed issued by the council, ‘of one substance with the Father’ . . . Overawed by the emperor, the bishops, with two exceptions only, signed the creed, many of them much against their inclination.”
Hence, Constantine’s role was crucial. After two months of furious religious debate, this pagan politician intervened and decided in favor of those who said that Jesus was God. But why? Certainly not because of any Biblical conviction. “Constantine had basically no understanding whatsoever of the questions that were being asked in Greek theology,” says A Short History of Christian Doctrine. What he did understand was that religious division was a threat to his empire, and he wanted to solidify his domain.
None of the bishops at Nicaea promoted a Trinity, however. They decided only the nature of Jesus but not the role of the holy spirit. If a Trinity had been a clear Bible truth, should they not have proposed it at that time?
Further Development
AFTER Nicaea, debates on the subject continued for decades. Those who believed that Jesus was not equal to God even came back into favor for a time. But later Emperor Theodosius decided against them. He established the creed of the Council of Nicaea as the standard for his realm and convened the Council of Constantinople in 381 C.E. to clarify the formula.
That council agreed to place the holy spirit on the same level as God and Christ. For the first time, Christendom’s Trinity began to come into focus.
Yet, even after the Council of Constantinople, the Trinity did not become a widely accepted creed. Many opposed it and thus brought on themselves violent persecution. It was only in later centuries that the Trinity was formulated into set creeds. The Encyclopedia Americana notes: “The full development of Trinitarianism took place in the West, in the Scholasticism of the Middle Ages, when an explanation was undertaken in terms of philosophy and psychology.”
The Athanasian Creed
THE Trinity was defined more fully in the Athanasian Creed. Athanasius was a clergyman who supported Constantine at Nicaea. The creed that bears his name declares: “We worship one God in Trinity . . . The Father is God, the Son is God, and the Holy Ghost is God; and yet they are not three gods, but one God.”
Well-informed scholars agree, however, that Athanasius did not compose this creed. The New Encyclopædia Britannica comments: “The creed was unknown to the Eastern Church until the 12th century. Since the 17th century, scholars have generally agreed that the Athanasian Creed was not written by Athanasius (died 373) but was probably composed in southern France during the 5th century. . . . The creed’s influence seems to have been primarily in southern France and Spain in the 6th and 7th centuries. It was used in the liturgy of the church in Germany in the 9th century and somewhat later in Rome.”
So it took centuries from the time of Christ for the Trinity to become widely accepted in Christendom. And in all of this, what guided the decisions? Was it the Word of God, or was it clerical and political considerations? In Origin and Evolution of Religion, E. W. Hopkins answers: “The final orthodox definition of the trinity was largely a matter of church politics.”
Apostasy Foretold
THIS disreputable history of the Trinity fits in with what Jesus and his apostles foretold would follow their time. They said that there would be an apostasy, a deviation, a falling away from true worship until Christ’s return, when true worship would be restored before God’s day of destruction of this system of things.
Regarding that “day,” the apostle Paul said: “It will not come unless the apostasy comes first and the man of lawlessness gets revealed.” (2 Thessalonians 2:3, 7) Later, he foretold: “When I have gone fierce wolves will invade you and will have no mercy on the flock. Even from your own ranks there will be men coming forward with a travesty of the truth on their lips to induce the disciples to follow them.” (Acts 20:29, 30, JB) Other disciples of Jesus also wrote of this apostasy with its ‘lawless’ clergy class.—See, for example, 2 Peter 2:1; 1 John 4:1-3; Jude 3, 4.
Paul also wrote: “The time is sure to come when, far from being content with sound teaching, people will be avid for the latest novelty and collect themselves a whole series of teachers according to their own tastes; and then, instead of listening to the truth, they will turn to myths.”—2 Timothy 4:3, 4, JB.
Jesus himself explained what was behind this falling away from true worship. He said that he had sowed good seeds but that the enemy, Satan, would oversow the field with weeds. So along with the first blades of wheat, the weeds appeared also. Thus, a deviation from pure Christianity was to be expected until the harvest, when Christ would set matters right. (Matthew 13:24-43) The Encyclopedia Americana comments: “Fourth century Trinitarianism did not reflect accurately early Christian teaching regarding the nature of God; it was, on the contrary, a deviation from this teaching.” Where, then, did this deviation originate?—1 Timothy 1:6.
What Influenced It
THROUGHOUT the ancient world, as far back as Babylonia, the worship of pagan gods grouped in threes, or triads, was common. That influence was also prevalent in Egypt, Greece, and Rome in the centuries before, during, and after Christ. And after the death of the apostles, such pagan beliefs began to invade Christianity.
Historian Will Durant observed: “Christianity did not destroy paganism; it adopted it. . . . From Egypt came the ideas of a divine trinity.” And in the book Egyptian Religion, Siegfried Morenz notes: “The trinity was a major preoccupation of Egyptian theologians . . . Three gods are combined and treated as a single being, addressed in the singular. In this way the spiritual force of Egyptian religion shows a direct link with Christian theology.”
Thus, in Alexandria, Egypt, churchmen of the late third and early fourth centuries, such as Athanasius, reflected this influence as they formulated ideas that led to the Trinity. Their own influence spread, so that Morenz considers “Alexandrian theology as the intermediary between the Egyptian religious heritage and Christianity.”
In the preface to Edward Gibbon’s History of Christianity, we read: “If Paganism was conquered by Christianity, it is equally true that Christianity was corrupted by Paganism. The pure Deism of the first Christians . . . was changed, by the Church of Rome, into the incomprehensible dogma of the trinity. Many of the pagan tenets, invented by the Egyptians and idealized by Plato, were retained as being worthy of belief.”
A Dictionary of Religious Knowledge notes that many say that the Trinity “is a corruption borrowed from the heathen religions, and ingrafted on the Christian faith.” And The Paganism in Our Christianity declares: “The origin of the [Trinity] is entirely pagan.”
That is why, in the Encyclopædia of Religion and Ethics, James Hastings wrote: “In Indian religion, e.g., we meet with the trinitarian group of Brahmā, Siva, and Viṣṇu; and in Egyptian religion with the trinitarian group of Osiris, Isis, and Horus . . . Nor is it only in historical religions that we find God viewed as a Trinity. One recalls in particular the Neo-Platonic view of the Supreme or Ultimate Reality,” which is “triadically represented.” What does the Greek philosopher Plato have to do with the Trinity?
Platonism
PLATO, it is thought, lived from 428 to 347 before Christ. While he did not teach the Trinity in its present form, his philosophies paved the way for it. Later, philosophical movements that included triadic beliefs sprang up, and these were influenced by Plato’s ideas of God and nature.
The French Nouveau Dictionnaire Universel (New Universal Dictionary) says of Plato’s influence: “The Platonic trinity, itself merely a rearrangement of older trinities dating back to earlier peoples, appears to be the rational philosophic trinity of attributes that gave birth to the three hypostases or divine persons taught by the Christian churches. . . . This Greek philosopher’s conception of the divine trinity . . . can be found in all the ancient [pagan] religions.”
The New Schaff-Herzog Encyclopedia of Religious Knowledge shows the influence of this Greek philosophy: “The doctrines of the Logos and the Trinity received their shape from Greek Fathers, who . . . were much influenced, directly or indirectly, by the Platonic philosophy . . . That errors and corruptions crept into the Church from this source can not be denied.”
The Church of the First Three Centuries says: “The doctrine of the Trinity was of gradual and comparatively late formation; . . . it had its origin in a source entirely foreign from that of the Jewish and Christian Scriptures; . . . it grew up, and was ingrafted on Christianity, through the hands of the Platonizing Fathers.”
By the end of the third century C.E., “Christianity” and the new Platonic philosophies became inseparably united. As Adolf Harnack states in Outlines of the History of Dogma, church doctrine became “firmly rooted in the soil of Hellenism [pagan Greek thought]. Thereby it became a mystery to the great majority of Christians.”
The church claimed that its new doctrines were based on the Bible. But Harnack says: “In reality it legitimized in its midst the Hellenic speculation, the superstitious views and customs of pagan mystery-worship.”
In the book A Statement of Reasons, Andrews Norton says of the Trinity: “We can trace the history of this doctrine, and discover its source, not in the Christian revelation, but in the Platonic philosophy . . . The Trinity is not a doctrine of Christ and his Apostles, but a fiction of the school of the later Platonists.”
Thus, in the fourth century C.E., the apostasy foretold by Jesus and the apostles came into full bloom. Development of the Trinity was just one evidence of this. The apostate churches also began embracing other pagan ideas, such as hellfire, immortality of the soul, and idolatry. Spiritually speaking, Christendom had entered its foretold dark ages, dominated by a growing “man of lawlessness” clergy class.—2 Thessalonians 2:3, 7.
Why Did God’s Prophets Not Teach It?
WHY, for thousands of years, did none of God’s prophets teach his people about the Trinity? At the latest, would Jesus not use his ability as the Great Teacher to make the Trinity clear to his followers? Would God inspire hundreds of pages of Scripture and yet not use any of this instruction to teach the Trinity if it were the “central doctrine” of faith?
Are Christians to believe that centuries after Christ and after having inspired the writing of the Bible, God would back the formulation of a doctrine that was unknown to his servants for thousands of years, one that is an “inscrutable mystery” “beyond the grasp of human reason,” one that admittedly had a pagan background and was “largely a matter of church politics”?
The testimony of history is clear: The Trinity teaching is a deviation from the truth, an apostatizing from it.
February 18
Edit | Reply
right on
Trinity is a pagan belief. catholics need to study history of an early churchHow Did the Trinity Doctrine Develop?
AT THIS point you might ask: ‘If the Trinity is not a Biblical teaching, how did it become a doctrine of Christendom?’ Many think that it was formulated at the Council of Nicaea in 325 C.E.
That is not totally correct, however. The Council of Nicaea did assert that Christ was of the same substance as God, which laid the groundwork for later Trinitarian theology. But it did not establish the Trinity, for at that council there was no mention of the holy spirit as the third person of a triune Godhead.
Constantine’s Role at Nicaea
FOR many years, there had been much opposition on Biblical grounds to the developing idea that Jesus was God. To try to solve the dispute, Roman emperor Constantine summoned all bishops to Nicaea. About 300, a fraction of the total, actually attended.
Constantine was not a Christian. Supposedly, he converted later in life, but he was not baptized until he lay dying. Regarding him, Henry Chadwick says in The Early Church: “Constantine, like his father, worshipped the Unconquered Sun; . . . his conversion should not be interpreted as an inward experience of grace . . . It was a military matter. His comprehension of Christian doctrine was never very clear, but he was sure that victory in battle lay in the gift of the God of the Christians.”
What role did this unbaptized emperor play at the Council of Nicaea? The Encyclopædia Britannica relates: “Constantine himself presided, actively guiding the discussions, and personally proposed . . . the crucial formula expressing the relation of Christ to God in the creed issued by the council, ‘of one substance with the Father’ . . . Overawed by the emperor, the bishops, with two exceptions only, signed the creed, many of them much against their inclination.”
Hence, Constantine’s role was crucial. After two months of furious religious debate, this pagan politician intervened and decided in favor of those who said that Jesus was God. But why? Certainly not because of any Biblical conviction. “Constantine had basically no understanding whatsoever of the questions that were being asked in Greek theology,” says A Short History of Christian Doctrine. What he did understand was that religious division was a threat to his empire, and he wanted to solidify his domain.
None of the bishops at Nicaea promoted a Trinity, however. They decided only the nature of Jesus but not the role of the holy spirit. If a Trinity had been a clear Bible truth, should they not have proposed it at that time?
Further Development
AFTER Nicaea, debates on the subject continued for decades. Those who believed that Jesus was not equal to God even came back into favor for a time. But later Emperor Theodosius decided against them. He established the creed of the Council of Nicaea as the standard for his realm and convened the Council of Constantinople in 381 C.E. to clarify the formula.
That council agreed to place the holy spirit on the same level as God and Christ. For the first time, Christendom’s Trinity began to come into focus.
Yet, even after the Council of Constantinople, the Trinity did not become a widely accepted creed. Many opposed it and thus brought on themselves violent persecution. It was only in later centuries that the Trinity was formulated into set creeds. The Encyclopedia Americana notes: “The full development of Trinitarianism took place in the West, in the Scholasticism of the Middle Ages, when an explanation was undertaken in terms of philosophy and psychology.”
The Athanasian Creed
THE Trinity was defined more fully in the Athanasian Creed. Athanasius was a clergyman who supported Constantine at Nicaea. The creed that bears his name declares: “We worship one God in Trinity . . . The Father is God, the Son is God, and the Holy Ghost is God; and yet they are not three gods, but one God.”
Well-informed scholars agree, however, that Athanasius did not compose this creed. The New Encyclopædia Britannica comments: “The creed was unknown to the Eastern Church until the 12th century. Since the 17th century, scholars have generally agreed that the Athanasian Creed was not written by Athanasius (died 373) but was probably composed in southern France during the 5th century. . . . The creed’s influence seems to have been primarily in southern France and Spain in the 6th and 7th centuries. It was used in the liturgy of the church in Germany in the 9th century and somewhat later in Rome.”
So it took centuries from the time of Christ for the Trinity to become widely accepted in Christendom. And in all of this, what guided the decisions? Was it the Word of God, or was it clerical and political considerations? In Origin and Evolution of Religion, E. W. Hopkins answers: “The final orthodox definition of the trinity was largely a matter of church politics.”
Apostasy Foretold
THIS disreputable history of the Trinity fits in with what Jesus and his apostles foretold would follow their time. They said that there would be an apostasy, a deviation, a falling away from true worship until Christ’s return, when true worship would be restored before God’s day of destruction of this system of things.
Regarding that “day,” the apostle Paul said: “It will not come unless the apostasy comes first and the man of lawlessness gets revealed.” (2 Thessalonians 2:3, 7) Later, he foretold: “When I have gone fierce wolves will invade you and will have no mercy on the flock. Even from your own ranks there will be men coming forward with a travesty of the truth on their lips to induce the disciples to follow them.” (Acts 20:29, 30, JB) Other disciples of Jesus also wrote of this apostasy with its ‘lawless’ clergy class.—See, for example, 2 Peter 2:1; 1 John 4:1-3; Jude 3, 4.
Paul also wrote: “The time is sure to come when, far from being content with sound teaching, people will be avid for the latest novelty and collect themselves a whole series of teachers according to their own tastes; and then, instead of listening to the truth, they will turn to myths.”—2 Timothy 4:3, 4, JB.
Jesus himself explained what was behind this falling away from true worship. He said that he had sowed good seeds but that the enemy, Satan, would oversow the field with weeds. So along with the first blades of wheat, the weeds appeared also. Thus, a deviation from pure Christianity was to be expected until the harvest, when Christ would set matters right. (Matthew 13:24-43) The Encyclopedia Americana comments: “Fourth century Trinitarianism did not reflect accurately early Christian teaching regarding the nature of God; it was, on the contrary, a deviation from this teaching.” Where, then, did this deviation originate?—1 Timothy 1:6.
What Influenced It
THROUGHOUT the ancient world, as far back as Babylonia, the worship of pagan gods grouped in threes, or triads, was common. That influence was also prevalent in Egypt, Greece, and Rome in the centuries before, during, and after Christ. And after the death of the apostles, such pagan beliefs began to invade Christianity.
Historian Will Durant observed: “Christianity did not destroy paganism; it adopted it. . . . From Egypt came the ideas of a divine trinity.” And in the book Egyptian Religion, Siegfried Morenz notes: “The trinity was a major preoccupation of Egyptian theologians . . . Three gods are combined and treated as a single being, addressed in the singular. In this way the spiritual force of Egyptian religion shows a direct link with Christian theology.”
Thus, in Alexandria, Egypt, churchmen of the late third and early fourth centuries, such as Athanasius, reflected this influence as they formulated ideas that led to the Trinity. Their own influence spread, so that Morenz considers “Alexandrian theology as the intermediary between the Egyptian religious heritage and Christianity.”
In the preface to Edward Gibbon’s History of Christianity, we read: “If Paganism was conquered by Christianity, it is equally true that Christianity was corrupted by Paganism. The pure Deism of the first Christians . . . was changed, by the Church of Rome, into the incomprehensible dogma of the trinity. Many of the pagan tenets, invented by the Egyptians and idealized by Plato, were retained as being worthy of belief.”
A Dictionary of Religious Knowledge notes that many say that the Trinity “is a corruption borrowed from the heathen religions, and ingrafted on the Christian faith.” And The Paganism in Our Christianity declares: “The origin of the [Trinity] is entirely pagan.”
That is why, in the Encyclopædia of Religion and Ethics, James Hastings wrote: “In Indian religion, e.g., we meet with the trinitarian group of Brahmā, Siva, and Viṣṇu; and in Egyptian religion with the trinitarian group of Osiris, Isis, and Horus . . . Nor is it only in historical religions that we find God viewed as a Trinity. One recalls in particular the Neo-Platonic view of the Supreme or Ultimate Reality,” which is “triadically represented.” What does the Greek philosopher Plato have to do with the Trinity?
Platonism
PLATO, it is thought, lived from 428 to 347 before Christ. While he did not teach the Trinity in its present form, his philosophies paved the way for it. Later, philosophical movements that included triadic beliefs sprang up, and these were influenced by Plato’s ideas of God and nature.
The French Nouveau Dictionnaire Universel (New Universal Dictionary) says of Plato’s influence: “The Platonic trinity, itself merely a rearrangement of older trinities dating back to earlier peoples, appears to be the rational philosophic trinity of attributes that gave birth to the three hypostases or divine persons taught by the Christian churches. . . . This Greek philosopher’s conception of the divine trinity . . . can be found in all the ancient [pagan] religions.”
The New Schaff-Herzog Encyclopedia of Religious Knowledge shows the influence of this Greek philosophy: “The doctrines of the Logos and the Trinity received their shape from Greek Fathers, who . . . were much influenced, directly or indirectly, by the Platonic philosophy . . . That errors and corruptions crept into the Church from this source can not be denied.”
The Church of the First Three Centuries says: “The doctrine of the Trinity was of gradual and comparatively late formation; . . . it had its origin in a source entirely foreign from that of the Jewish and Christian Scriptures; . . . it grew up, and was ingrafted on Christianity, through the hands of the Platonizing Fathers.”
By the end of the third century C.E., “Christianity” and the new Platonic philosophies became inseparably united. As Adolf Harnack states in Outlines of the History of Dogma, church doctrine became “firmly rooted in the soil of Hellenism [pagan Greek thought]. Thereby it became a mystery to the great majority of Christians.”
The church claimed that its new doctrines were based on the Bible. But Harnack says: “In reality it legitimized in its midst the Hellenic speculation, the superstitious views and customs of pagan mystery-worship.”
In the book A Statement of Reasons, Andrews Norton says of the Trinity: “We can trace the history of this doctrine, and discover its source, not in the Christian revelation, but in the Platonic philosophy . . . The Trinity is not a doctrine of Christ and his Apostles, but a fiction of the school of the later Platonists.”
Thus, in the fourth century C.E., the apostasy foretold by Jesus and the apostles came into full bloom. Development of the Trinity was just one evidence of this. The apostate churches also began embracing other pagan ideas, such as hellfire, immortality of the soul, and idolatry. Spiritually speaking, Christendom had entered its foretold dark ages, dominated by a growing “man of lawlessness” clergy class.—2 Thessalonians 2:3, 7.
Why Did God’s Prophets Not Teach It?
WHY, for thousands of years, did none of God’s prophets teach his people about the Trinity? At the latest, would Jesus not use his ability as the Great Teacher to make the Trinity clear to his followers? Would God inspire hundreds of pages of Scripture and yet not use any of this instruction to teach the Trinity if it were the “central doctrine” of faith?
Are Christians to believe that centuries after Christ and after having inspired the writing of the Bible, God would back the formulation of a doctrine that was unknown to his servants for thousands of years, one that is an “inscrutable mystery” “beyond the grasp of human reason,” one that admittedly had a pagan background and was “largely a matter of church politics”?
The testimony of history is clear: The Trinity teaching is a deviation from the truth, an apostatizing from it.
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