Does the Trinity exist?
What would happen if it didn't?
Who came up with it?
When was it started?
Should you believe in the Trinity?
Your thoughts?
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I don't believe in the TrinityThere are many reasons, as an earnest Bible believer, that I don't believe in the Trinity. I'm too lazy to type out all the research and scriptures now, but even from a purely logical and reasonable standpoint... it just doesn't make sense.40% Voted for by endsofbread, mudgod.
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It doesn't make sense because it's beyong mental capacity...I can only give you a rough draft. The trinity is the 3 parts of God. Together as whole, but whole in itself. unseparateable parts that are one with eachother. The God of everything is the God who made you. He is everywere. Jesus was the human form of God and the son of God. It was The God made flesh. God is everywere, but he had to be human in order to sacrifice him for other humans. But God would cease to be "god" if he were to be in a finite amount of space (Jesus). God is still everywere, while Jesus was specifically at a point. But Jesus went to heaven, were he himself is now eternal like he was before he was made flesh. A short explanation is that God would have to be everywere to be omnipresent and omnipotent. But In order to save his world, he would have to sacrifice himself. So Jesus came to the earth. To be that sacrifice. He was a divine human. The holy spirit is what enters you when you accept christ. But if God is everywere he can't specifically enter something if he is already there. But the holy spirit is the part of God that can go into people. It is still infinite, but is able to enter the hearts of men. God can't just specifically be in the hearts of men, or he would cease to be omnipresent, but the Holy spirit is that part that enters the heart, and starts battling with the flesh (another word for carnal nature). The Holy spirit, The King of everything, and Jesus are all God, yet different parts of the same entity, but as different deities, although still God.40% Voted for by Doom Pickels, Child of an Angel.
I believe the trinity exsist because of that the holy spirit has done in my life, What Jesus has done to allow the holy spirit to enter my life, and God becasue the world around us is faaaaaaaaar to complex and orderly in order to rise by chance, even with millions of years (witch is impossible) of death and mutations.
If the trinity didn't exsist, then God wouldn't be able to sacrifice himself to save the world. And The holy spirit wouldn't be able to enter the hearts of people when they accepted Jesus in order to save them.
It was everexsisting. If wasn't "created", but "always" THE beggining and end. But it was there always.
it didn't "start" it always was. It was always part of God's master plan.
I believe you should, and I also believe that it is needed in order to get into heaven.
My thoughts is that the trinity is far too complex and infinite to possibly to come into exsistance by story tellers. It just isn't something that someone would try to fathom. And that it makes perfectly sense that it wouldn't make sense, because we aren't be able to begin to make sense of infinity. Kind of like the number .999(repeating), it might as well be 1, but there is a difference of an infintismal amount, that its annoying to think about it. But the number .999 (repeating) isn't anything like the trinity.
If you have any questions about
~pain and suffering
~death
~evolution vs. creationism
~ETC,
you can email me to give you my input. (D00m_pickels@hotmail.com) -
Excerpt from "Who is God? And what would we be without Him?"Saint Patrick explained the Trinity through a clover. There are three leaves on a clover. In this same manner, there are three distinct aspects of the Trinity: the Father, the Son, and the Spirit. The three leaves on the clover are attached at one stem, just like the Father, Son, and Spirit are one godhead.Voted for by Trinity Dragon.
The three aspects are quite different from one another, but work in such unity that they are literally of one mind. The will of one is the will of the other two. The Father is the creator, the Son is the redeemer, and the Spirit is the sanctifier. Yet each one co-operates in each other’s work.
This is illustrated throughout the Bible. The Father testifies of the Son (Matthew 3:17), the Son testified of the Father (John 5:19), the Son testified of the Spirit (John 14:26), and the Spirit testified of the Son in John 15:26)
While St. Patrick used a shamrock, my favorite analogy that I’ve seen is in light. Light has three parts to it. The actinic part is the invisible stuff (like God the Father), and then there is the luminiferous part, which is visible, like the Son of God. Finally, the calorific third is what gives off heat. It is felt but not seen, like the Holy Spirit.
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mudgod
December 12, 2006
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Applehead
December 13, 2006
Metaphor
God is all three. They are divided to help us understand that God is all things.mudgod
December 13, 2006
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Applehead
December 13, 2006
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Applehead
December 13, 2006
"All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit [Matthew 28:19]."
The Bible doesn't use the word trinity but it does refer to Father, Son and Holy Spirit which is why I call it a metaphor.
December 13, 2006
Explain
That is speculating far too much from a scripture that merely lists two seperate persons and God's active force. Explain why that should be considered a metaphor.Furthermore, if God were making a clear allusion to a trinity unity, why use the example of Father and Son, when clearly for us that means two seperate individuals that are not equal.
December 14, 2006
seperate
are you saying that the father is a seperate and higher power than jesus? than was jesus divine? or are you suggesting that they are 2 seperate divine beingsDecember 15, 2006
December 15, 2006
December 17, 2006
I do not believe in two Gods
That does not also mean I believe in two Gods. I believe that Jesus is not the Almighty God as I mentioned earlier. I believe there is only one Almighty God Jehovah. And divine does not mean Almighty God. Human judges have been referred to as god in the bible just as Jesus has. That does not mean these human judges or Jesus are actually the Almighty Supreme One.December 17, 2006
December 17, 2006
The is only one true God. Not a trinity. Not two Gods, just one.
I do not believe in two Gods. There is only one true Divine God. That is God Almighty Jehovah. While even judges (Ps. 82:6) can be called gods, that does not mean I think they are the Almighty God. There is a title that is the "King of Kings." while it is applied to Jesus it is also applied to King Nebuchadnezzar. So, I am always very careful about titles and I look up every occasion of a title in its own context. I never make hasty conclusions just because someone is given a title in the Bible.December 17, 2006
divinity
so exactly what ARE (capitol letters don't mean i'm mad, there are just no italics on this dang box lol) your beliefs on Christ? what's the difference between Jesus and all the other prophets and judgesDecember 17, 2006
December 17, 2006
The Word
BUt what about "in the beginning was the Word (Jesus) and the word was with God and the word WAS GOd" (John1:1)? Do you believe Jesus was humanDecember 17, 2006
Ho Theos
The answer is in the original greek. It is a common mistake for some interpreters to translate that scripture as the Word was God, especially when they have the preconceived notion of the Trinity, however, a vital definite article holds the answer. The fact that the word theos is without definite article (ho) and is placed before the verb in the sentence changes the meaning completely. Other translations of the scripture read the Word was a god or the Word has a divine nature or divine qualities.December 17, 2006
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ll research and consider that. thanks alot
mudgod
December 14, 2006
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This is a link to a booklet called God Is a Family. It is a quick read (1/2 hour or less). It answers all the questions that you have regarding the trinity doctrine. And much easier to understand than I could make it. Anyone who has a question about the trinity should read this article.
December 15, 2006
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Energizer Bunny
December 13, 2006
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God the Father, Son, and H.S.
One God but He divides Himself into 3 separate ways for us to better understand Him. Great answer Apple...amen.December 16, 2006
trinity
The best way that I have heard to describe the trinity is in the Example of the triangle the three corners of a triangle being 3 separate parts, but all are the same triangle. So the Father, Son, and the Holy Spirit are all God. It is the only answer, I have found too explain that God is one as the Torah states. And mudgod the Holy Spirit is referenced as having personal traits isn't He?December 17, 2006
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There is absolutely nothing in nature that resembles this relationship. Some say it is only a supernatural relationship too advanced for the human mind to grasp.
TeChNoWC
December 17, 2006
'I am one with the Father, and he is one with me'.
The Holy Spirit represents an embodiement of God that is currently earthbound. Although the Holy Spirit as essence is not earthbound, its attributal nature supposedly is (as far as we can tell from the Word).
December 17, 2006
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Scriptures have all the answers
I appreciate you using at least one scripture (John 10:30) in your reasoning. But we should find out exactly what Jesus means when he uses the word "one" by looking up yet another scripture. Matthew 19:4-6 has Jesus explaining about a man and woman marrying "and the two will become one flesh." So here we can clearly see that just like God and Jesus are part of a Trinity, man and woman are also part of Dinity??? Clearly no.The answer is God and Jesus are joined as one just like man and woman are joined as one.
To further illustrate my point, lets look up 1 Cor 11:3. Here we read women are to turn their head to man, men are to turn their head to Christ. And Christ is turn his head to God. Women in subjection to men, men to Jesus, and Jesus to God. Why would Jesus turn his head to God if he is God? Just as men and woman are united as one LITERALLY, Jesus and God are not united as one LITERALLY. In fact, each are higher than the other and one has to subject and turn their head.
TeChNoWC
December 17, 2006
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Jesus turns His head to the Father because it is a representation of the aspect of service, humility and responding to leadership. God does have a leader He must submit to, and that is Himself. It is also the act of God as a human trying to fend of the flesh, which promotes actions that are not of God, and submitting Himself to His own preset ideals.
TeChNoWC
December 17, 2006
December 17, 2006
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December 17, 2006
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I know of the scripture you are talking about, but I can't find it right now. I'd rather not make a comment on it until I have read it again. Please, find it for me and I will either tell you I am completely swayed to being a Trinitarian or I will give you a reasonable explanation against it.
But until you find it, please read John 14:28. "If you loved me, you would have rejoiced, because I go to the Father; for the Father is greater than I."
TeChNoWC
December 17, 2006
a) an omnipresent embodiement of God
b ) Not earth bound
c) Not hindered by flesh and the imminence of death (even though Jesus proved to conquer this as well)
Jesus was sent to be tested as a man, and thus was not at full strong as the likes of the Father, yet proved Himself through His striving.
I will try and find the verses you requested.
December 17, 2006
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OR I'm assuming that you believe for a time the Holy Trinity was weakened while Jesus was on Earth.
I have a hard time understanding your belief on when Jesus was sent to Earth. It is as if you believe that only 1/3 of God died that day. Otherwise, how would Jesus have been resurrected? Furhtermore, you suggest that God be weakened by his own rules, that He could feel the temptations of wickedness and flesh. You believe Jesus and the rest of "God" had a disconnect while he was in His fleshly form and that for a time God was not completely God because he was flesh and they were no longer really One for that time because Jesus did not know everything that God knew and Jesus acknowledged that the Father was greater than Him.
I just... have a hard time believing that my Grand Creator could ever be weakened. I mean, if even He can become impure and tempted... then... that's just a huge blow in my faith in God and myself.
TeChNoWC
December 17, 2006
Yes, Jesus was weakened on Earth. He sweated blood. He didn't want to go on the cross. He went through all the temptations of man and succeeded.
Easy answer for God being tempted. If God were perfect and not tempted, and Jesus or man (upon reaching perfection) was perfect yet tempted, who is the greater, God or the perfect man? The perfect man would be. Being perfect without being tempted is easy; you say it is 'far from God to be tempted', yet this would actually be a put down to His divinity by suggesting that God gets it easy. It says in the Word that (and again I don't have a reference, this one is in the Old Testament) God actually has to hold Himself from saying the things of His angered heart, for if He were to speak them out, we would all be dead. Thus He has to challenge such temptations.
God could easily abolish such temptations upon Him, as He is the Almighty God, yet the whole principle is that He humbles Himself in order to appropriate with man. He could do anything He wants, but He humbles Himself to the point of servanthood and manhood. Thus, He chooses not to abolish it, hence why Satan still exists.
December 17, 2006
And yes I know Jesus was weakened on Earth.
But that does not really answer my quandry. Because Jesus was weakened, does that mean for a time that the Holy Trinity of God was weakened, impure, and incomplete?
TeChNoWC
December 17, 2006
Are you so dull? (Jesus words not mine) check out Mark 7:18-23. Just because Jesus was tempted, as in, Satan comes up and says 'do this' and His flesh wants to but His spirit is so much more powerful, does not make Him unclean.
Oh man you tripped bad. You see, if I set my mind to something, let's say I decide overeating is a crime against starving children in Africa, and thus I decide what is right and wrong for me, do you think I would necessarily stick to my so passionate cause? If so, we wouldn't need a saviour. Just because someone deems something as wrong doesn't mean he/she can't be decieved into performing the wrong action. That's why they call it temptation; you know its wrong but you want it so bad. I fall to it all the time, and mentality is a bummer, cos you just can't beat it on your own.
December 17, 2006
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So you are saying God can change his mind at any time and decide that wickedness is now good and good is now wicked? I understand if you are saying it is possible in a philosophical sense, but the scriptures say it is impossible for God to lie. I believe that scripture. It is easy to conjecture then along with that scripture that God cannot sin. Apparently you believe he can.
Furthermore, how can you say flesh does not make God unclean or impure, or unholy, when in fact you say that Jesus being an Earthly man caused there to be boundaries between him and the rest of "hisself" the holy trinity? If fleshly eyes can now look upon "God", which the scriptures say cannot happen, then God MUST be less holy.
TeChNoWC
December 17, 2006
It is purely a role thing, as well as a learning process, for immense levels of growth.
December 17, 2006
I never said your mother is less faulty than you.
If you are saying that all imperfect persons are equal to one another just as all perfect persons are equal to one another, then wouldn't you be saying that all the angelic creatures are equal to God?
Clearly, there are variations in equality. And that is what 1 Cor chows for us.
TeChNoWC
December 17, 2006
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TeChNoWC
December 17, 2006
The current state of the embodiement taking into account impediments is in regards to say, your personality, then should it be impeded upon when your being gang raped. Your personality won't shine then. More so will this girly fear that is not the endsofbread everyone knows and loves.
This is an example of Jesus' embodiement. While being crucified, He was not in a good state, and He was weak, yet His essence, which is uniformally God and not seperate in any way, shape or form, was still strong.
What I was referring to in my comment was the idea that Kierkegaard was greater than me, and it is not because he got fame and fortune, or that he had a better hairdo than me, but things such equatable Godly achievements, and he only achieved more due to the impediments on my embodiement (that I give in to apathy, lust, contentment in the world, all of these things that stop achievement) yet still our essence (spirits) are equal. This is like the Trinity. God is one and equal, even His aspects, yet the attributes of His embodiements vary due to their particulars (I am the Son, you are the Father, I have flesh, you sit on a big throne in the sky, yet their is no distinction between the essence). I cannot say anymore really. It is a philosophical concept that you need to research and grasp should you continue in your endeavour of discovery whether/not for Trinitarianism. If 'being one' does not refer to essence (my soul is my soul even though it comes up with different things and varies in its capabilities) then what does it refer to?
December 17, 2006
Sure, you could say I am one with God. You could say we are all one with God, but that does not make us equal. And you agree, Jesus is not equal to God, only in "essence" or I assume energy. And yes, we all have energy. We are all philosophically equal I guess in such a sense. But then why make God a trinity when there is no need to do so? When there is no clear scripture saying so. When all of the first century christians never made mention of such an idea. When the Bible makes no mention of "trinity." You'd think the form and essence of God would be important thing to say in the Bible that YES God is a Trinity! But it doesn't. And so you say, Jesus, God, and the Holy Spirit can have varying forms of greatness and not be coequal, but they are still one anyway. Well, I agree that Jesus and God are one! He says it clear as day! But a Trinity? That comes completely out of left field. Even if you could absolutely conclusively show that Jesus and the Father are equal, which you say they aren't anyway, then there's still the Holy Spirit, which isn't even a person to begin with! So, why why why a trinity? Why can't God and Jesus be one like man and woman are one just like he says so? Why all this complication and confusion behind this everchanging and baffling doctrine that no bible-writers ever endorsed? The Bible says that God is a God not of confusion. And the Trinity is absolutley confusing.
TeChNoWC
December 18, 2006
I am offended that you would dishonour the Holy Spirit in such a fashion, I believe that He has been grieved by your mis-interpretation of the extent of His wondrous Being. I don't want to be "consoled" by a strong, unliving force (and how can a spirit not be living anyway), drugs and chemicals can do that. No, a living, breathing Being is capable of such consolement.
The Lord did want to hide his identity. In Matthew 16:20 we see Jesus telling His disciples not to tell anyone that He is the Christ, and His conduct in this passage indicates a secretive nature.
If we do indeed happen to stumble across the verse that states Jesus was worshipped by His disciples and He accepted this, then this debate is over. If He were not God, then such worship would be idolatry. I will try and find the verse and hopefully settle this argument. If not, I refrain from my stance and shall go to another for consolement, that being my pastor, and if he cannot explain, then obviously he and I will convert to your cause. Anyway, I will get back to you.
December 19, 2006
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It is true the holy spirit is referred to as a helper, comforter, who speaks and hears, but we have to consider all the scriptures to get a clear understanding since it is also referred to as something that people are filled with, annointed with, or baptized with. One cannot be filled by a person and a person cannot be poured out. Further, we see the son was given the PERSONAL name of Jesus. We see the father was given the PERSONAL name of Jehovah. But we do not see such a personal name for the holy spirit. It only makes sense then to conclude that the holy spirit is not an actual living, breathing, talking person, but God's active force, which has been personified in a few occasions, just like other non-person and unnamed things.
TeChNoWC
December 17, 2006
Is my mother in authority over me? Yes.
Is Kierkegaard greater than me, in essence? No.
Is he greater than me in that he achieved more, and reached more intimacy with God? Yes.
Combine these two together, and you get the idea. Note that worldly achievements do not equate to greatness; it is the strength of the current state of the embodiement taking into account impediments upon the embodiement vs. the equality of essence.
Even if I am closer to God than an atheist, He still loves us both equally, and our spirits, without the impediment (i.e non-timebound potential) are of equal standing.
December 17, 2006
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I never thought worldly achievements equate greatness. I don't get the next sentence after that. Current state of the embodient taking into account impediments upon the the embodiment vs. the equality of essence????? Clarify please.
I never said God does not love his children. God will love His enemies as well and He will forgive them, as long as they don't sin against the Holy Spirit. (Which by the way, why can a sin against the Son be forgiven, but not the Holy Spirit if they are all coequal?)
TeChNoWC
December 18, 2006
Matthew 14:33
Let me remind you, that angels also are not to be worshipped, as seen in Revelations. If this angel rebuked John, yet Jesus did not rebuke those who worshipped Him, what does it suggest? Idolatry? I don't think so.
December 19, 2006
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Scriptures have all the answers
Very nice job getting those scriptures.However, because you obey your parents, that does not mean you think they are God. Because a woman must subject herself to her husband, that does not mean they think he is God. And when you present yourself in front of a King, is it in not usual to do an act of obeisance?
Yes, in fact any time we have to submit, we show subjection and obeisance. The men on the boat realized that Jesus was the SON of God and so realizing it they showed an act of obeisance. That does not mean they even thought he was God, but like if you were to realize you were in the midst of a mighty and powerful king, would you not bend down on one knee to show the proper respect. Such is the case here. These men were not praising Jesus as God Almighty. It is assuming far too much to come to that conclusion.
In Matthew 14, Jesus clearly says have no fear. If these men were in fact praising Jesus as God Almighty, which it is not clear if they are or not, Jesus says, "have no fear." Which would clearly mean, do not fear me as you would God Almighty.
This debate can be over whenever you decide, but with the scriptures as my guide, I'll never believe anything against it.
Which by the way, you say because the Holy spirit and God say the same thing, that means they are unified in a holy trinity. Yet, if the bible was written by man, but yet it is the word of God also, does that not mean that mankind is also part of this trinity?
First of all, I am not entirely clear on your flat-out, end-all definition of the Trinity. Because I have given clear scriptures that refute the traditional belief of it. And there are many more where it came from: De 6:4, Mal 2:10, Mr 10:18, Ro 3:29, Re 3:14, Col 1:15, Isa 44:6, Php 2:5,6, Da 4:35, Php 2:10, 11, Joh 8:42, 12:49, 14:28, 5:19, Heb 5:8, Php 2:9, 1 Co 15:28, Mt 20:23, 1Co 11:3, Joh 20:17, Re 1:6, Joh, 8:28, 29, 14:10, Joh 10:30, Mt 19:4-6, Joh 17:20-22, 1 Co 1:10, Joh 4:23,24, Mt 3:16, Joh 20:22, Ac 2:4, 17, 33, 7:55, 56, Re 7:10, Ps 104:30, 1 Co 12:4-11, 1 Co 2:12,13, Ga 5:16.
I am a man of the scriptures. The debate will be over when I believe that all those scriptures don't clearly harmonize with the fact that the trinity does not exist.
Here are some scriptures you might use to back up the Trinity: Rev 1:8, 11, Ish 9:6, 43:10, 11, 40:3, Mat 28:19, 2 Cor 13:14, John 1:1,2, John 8:58, Acts 20:28, Rom 9:5, Phil 2:5,6, Col 2:9, Titus 2:13, Heb 1:8, 1John 5:7,8, John 2:19-22, John 10:30.
I'm not trying to flex any muscles by posting a whole bunch of scriptures. Its my hope that you'll get a chance to read and meditate on all of them, pray to God, and ask Him for the truth.
Lastly, you said Jesus was trying to keep secret his identity as the Messiah from unbelievers. That has no relevance as to why God would keep the true identity of God's essence a secret from true believers. It is very important. I mean, a trinity is quite different than what the Israelites believed, as well as Paul and all of the Apostles.
The origin of the 4th century doctrine of the Trinity is an interesting one and its definitely worth a look. It may even be good to know EXACTLY what the trinity is. Where did it come from? Is it strict? Did all of God die on the cross or just part of him? Is God forever pure and holy or can He be less holy or impure? Or can only Jesus? Can they ever be seperated? Are they each God? Or part of God, or somehow both God and part God? Are they coequal? In what sense are they one? Is the Holy Spirit supposed to be a person?
The answers to the last three questions are clearly refuted in the bible, so its important to know EXACTLY what the trinity is if one is to believe in it.
Many people I meet have a habit of skewing their trinitarian belief to fit the scriptures I bring up and unfortunately they have the right to keep skewing it because half the time they are unsure exactly what the trinity entails.
I should make a habit of having a person clearly define what the trinity is before having such a discussion.
Applehead
December 19, 2006
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17:2 As thou hast given him power over all flesh, that he should give eternal life to as many as thou hast given him.
17:3 And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.
17:4 I have glorified thee on the earth: I have finished the work which thou gavest me to do.
17:5 And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.
17:6 I have manifested thy name unto the men which thou gavest me out of the world: thine they were, and thou gavest them me; and they have kept thy word.
17:7 Now they have known that all things whatsoever thou hast given me are of thee.
17:8 For I have given unto them the words which thou gavest me; and they have received them, and have known surely that I came out from thee, and they have believed that thou didst send me.
17:9 I pray for them: I pray not for the world, but for them which thou hast given me; for they are thine.
17:10 And all mine are thine, and thine are mine; and I am glorified in them.
17:11 And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we are.
All this confirms for me That Jesus is part of God. He was manifest as a man to help us become closer to God, and hopefully be one with God as He is. Jesus speaks to God not because He is seperate in spirit but seperated by dimension. His physical being restricts oneness. When/if I reach heaven I do not think I will meet God and Jesus followed by His Holy Spirit, but will be as one with all three as they are one with each other. Why else must we be free of sin, would we not desecrate the purity of God if we were allowed to do so.
December 19, 2006
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Jesus was God
Mark 2:5 He said to a paralytic," My son, your sins are forgiven" And then the Scribes correctly asked "Who can forgive sins but God alone?" And what did Jesus Do but prove his claim was not an empty boast He healed the Man. So I ask you the same question that the Scribes asked Jesus. Who can forgive sins but God alone?December 19, 2006
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I AM
And the strongest claim to Jesus being God was by himself not me. John 8:58 "Jesus said to them, “Most assuredly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I AM.” " This I AM is the same name that YHWH gave Himself in Exodus 3:14 "I AM WHO I AM"December 19, 2006
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The Apostles knew He was God
John 20:28 Thomas saw his wounds and cried, "My Lord and my God!" And in Col. 2:9 Paul calls Jesus, the One in whom " all the fullness of Diety dwells in bodily form" In Titus, Jesus is called "our great God and Savior" Titus 2:13And Paul says that before Christ existed in the "likeness of man," which clearly refers to being really human, He existed in the "form of God" (Phil.2:5-8).
Ok that is enough for you to chew on for a while.
TeChNoWC
December 19, 2006
December 19, 2006
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Did you not read?
"Here are some scriptures you might use to back up the Trinity: Rev 1:8, 11, Ish 9:6, 43:10, 11, 40:3, Mat 28:19, 2 Cor 13:14, John 1:1,2, John 8:58, Acts 20:28, Rom 9:5, Phil 2:5,6, Col 2:9, Titus 2:13, Heb 1:8, 1John 5:7,8, John 2:19-22, John 10:30."I took time to list most of all the scriptures that appear to back up the trinity. I have clear answers for ALL these scriptures and have prayed deeply on the matter.
It is so simple for me, I don't have to think of complicated or confusing ways to justify my thinking, I just read the scriptures and reason.
I have simple explanations to the scriptures that appear to backup the trinity. Have you yet looked at the scriptures I gave that clearly contradict the trinity?
And thank you for your concern, but I would never be offended by your "intervention." I accept truth from whatever source it may come. And I know you guys believe you have it right. But there just isn't any slight doubt at all that I haven't read, reread, and reasoned on the scriptures in exactly the way God intended.
December 20, 2006
Before
Before I feel that we can get to the point of the Trinity I feel that you first have to come to the conclusion that Jesus was God and you were arguing against it above so I started with that. But I do not feel that I need to start with scripture that you have already come up with an answer for. If in a debate I would hope that you would not give me a set of verses and say ok this is your only options for debate. But If this is the case I will look over your verses and get back too you. It was your debate which I entered I guess. Without a Trinity anything beyond Judaism is a false religion.December 20, 2006
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Basically Ragman, I cannot discuss the divinity of Jesus until I know what your exact definition of the Trinitarian God is.
I would love to discuss the Trinity with you, but its not fair for me to have a debate when I don't know what you believe.
Please explain soon in clear, concise, brief definition so I can know and have a good discussion with you.
Lastly, the scriptures were there to help anyone who might want to research the subject. It is true that I have researched and come up with logical conclusions for all those scriptures, but that doesn't mean they are the only scriptures I plan to use or discuss.
I'm sorry if you got the impression those were the only scriptures I wanted anyone to use.
Applehead
December 20, 2006
Endsofbread
"Jesus says, "have no fear." Which would clearly mean, do not fear me as you would God Almighty."Wow you actually fear God, thats crap for you hun. That to me says you have faith because you fear and not because you Love
The Trinity is real from a human perspective. Its a name for all we have seen of God by reading the Bible. God in heaven, God in spirit down here on our plane, God in Jesus Christ. It's possible your fear prevents you from pondering enough to try understand. Why do you preach about God because you fear him or Love him? True faith in God would relieve you of your fear for God Loves you.
December 20, 2006
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Not a scared fear like that of a murderer, but a reverential fear like you would give to your father.
I think you misunderstood my meaning of fear.
"4. reverential awe, esp. toward God." is one definition from Dictionary.com.
The Trinity is absolutely real from a human perspective. However, from God's and the Bible's perspective it is not the case at all. I hope you get a chance to look up some of the scriptures I provided. Those are not all the scriptures that can be researched, but they are the ones most used to both back up and tear down the trinitarian belief.
Its very important that you have a clear definition of the Trinitarian God. If you could explain to me your definitive version of it, I could point you to scriptures that would probably very interesting for you.
In any case, I never plan on being relieved of my fear. And I preach about him, not only because God demands it, but because the truth motivates me, I love God, and I love my fellow man. I really want all to know the truth.
December 20, 2006
Matt 14: 26-27
Keep the scripture in context and do not try and add to it. Jesus was saying "don't be afraid" because the disciples thought that it was a GHOST walking on water. NOT BECOUSE THEY THOUGHT IT WAS THE ALMIGHTY GOD. Here are the verses word for word. Matt. 14:26-27 "26 When the disciples saw him walking on the lake, they were terrified. “It’s a ghost," they said, and cried out in fear.27 But Jesus immediately said to them: "Take courage! It is I. Don't be afraid."" (NIV) Again I ask that you don't add to the scripture to make it say something that it doesn’t to prove a point. Let the Scripture speak for itself. God Bless.
December 21, 2006
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TeChNoWC
December 20, 2006
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Jesus is God. The Bible says it. Anyone who is to deny this is not a follower of Christ and is perverting the Word.
December 23, 2006
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Sorry about that
Your earlier post had this in it. "In Matthew 14, Jesus clearly says have no fear. If these men were in fact praising Jesus as God Almighty, which it is not clear if they are or not, Jesus says, "have no fear." Which would clearly mean, do not fear me as you would God Almighty." So I went to Matt 14 and that is where I pulled the scripture that I had referanced above.March 13, 2007
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