-
View this and remain neutral, I challenge theeMy opinion is that no-one who eats meat could watch this filmVoted for by Alexander Hine.
Meet Your Meat, at www.goveg.com/factoryFarming.asp
and not at least think twice about it.
Check it out, and tell me what you think.
Oh, and if you remain unmoved, please give me an argument as to why you feel these practices are acceptable (and, if you eat meat, you are supporting them...unless of course you raise and slaugher you own little beasts).
K. F. -
.I have seen similar videos as well as this one and I still do and will continue to eat meat. What kind of name is petetheusedtoeatmeat...Voted for by petethemeat.Please login or register to comment.
Registration is required because of issues with spam. It is fast and free! This author would LOVE to get a comment from you, please join!
-
Adding your comment: -
LOL
-
Um, any reasons why? or just a cold heart.
K. F. -
The reasons why, is that while I may have an initial revulsion to the video (which is what the video producers want), this will fade and I will continue to like meat. I have no money Kinch and I do not buy the food for my house, so i have very little say on what meat we buy. Perhaps if there is an option for humanely killed meat I would consider it.
-
-
"I will continue to like meat" - it's odd; that argument seems to be accepted in these kinds of debates - but it isn't an argument.
P1: By buying meat I am supporting unethical practices.
P2: I like the taste of meat.
Therefore: I am ethically justified in buying meat.
It just doesn't work, you see. It isn't an argument.
K. F.
P. S. I know you apparently have no say over what you eat, the point I'm making is just about the argument.
-
-
Buy free range eggs for a start, free range eggs come from chickens that don't live in cages like those depicted in the video.
-
I believe we already do...
-
Exactly. This video displays a U.S standard, not UK or Australian standards, and is not standard for free range products. Many of the practices are now also considered illegal. Many animals are still poorly treated but it is an issue of simply trying to reduce this. Unfortunately the throat cutting bit is a necessity, this probably disturbed me the most. It would be good if we could make it unlawful to practice this while the animal is conscious. It also relies on the effort of the government to regulate and enforce these policies.
-
That's all well and good (although practices in Australia have been found to be just as bad, is some industries anyway) but I'd rather not give my money to such industries. There are many other reasons for my eating habits - health, the environment, religion - but I reckon the treament in factory farms would be enough for me. Free range eggs are a good option, and I know a few farmers who are changing their practices, letting their cattle roam free and all that - which is very good. I guess my point is that, even if the industry is making attempts to change, I don't see how anyone could actively support what it's doing right now.
Well, that was a crappy post, sorry.
K. F. -
You have simply realized the realm of flexibility.
There are moral alternatives to veganism - in fact veganism (not vegetarianism necessarily) can cause serious B12 deficencies and I believe lead to susemia or something (yeah google it, do a bit of research, you'll find it eventually
). So there goes the health argument out the window too.
-
Yes, TeChNoWC, veganism CAN lead to illness if it isn't done properly, but it isn't hard to find which foods to eat more of, or simply take a supplement. One of the key points about this argument is that I don't think my position is valid in all times and places, but it is most definitely valid and ethical in the modern world. We have such an abundance of choices that it seems callous to reject an ethical diet just on the basis of taste preference. That's just my opinion, but I really do think the arguments for this whether ethical, environmental and, of a lesser importance, health-related are valid and fairly inescapable, especially when viewed all at once.
K. F.
-
-
I'm happy to say that I'm a vegetarian. Though I know omnivores can easily see that without at least being slightly moved or horrified.. I don't paticualry see how any humane person could treat another living being so cruelly.Voted for by Rippy.
-
What I think.I have watched those videos and others talking about how animals are treated when it comes to getting them ready to become meat to be eaten by people. There's no way I can deny that those animals are being treated in very awful, cruel, and downright painful ways that would likely never been accepted if anything remotely similar ever happen to humans. Having said that, when it comes to meat, I'll...Voted for by Ievianty.
Keep eating it, fully aware of how those animals are being treated. It's gonna take more then just those videos to get me to see why a select group of people believe eating meat is immoral and stop eating meat myself.Please login or register to comment.Registration is required because of issues with spam. It is fast and free! This author would LOVE to get a comment from you, please join!
-
Adding your comment:
-
Well, there's also the fact that cases of heart disease (USA) could be reduced by up to 85% and Cancer (USA) by up to 60%. Then there is the role that the meat industry plays in supporting poverty - the vast majority of the world's produce is used to feed cattle, the vast majority of which is consumed by a wealthy, western minority. Plus the environmental degradation...but I won't go into that for now.
Besides those things, why do you think it is okay to support the torture of these animals? Would you (and this is not rhetorical) support an industry that did the same to cats, dogs, apes or young humans (that is not to be provocative, but adult Bonobos have roughly the same mental capacity as three year old humans, so it is an arguable point if you allow such treatment for apes.)?
I'll be curious to hear from you. Oh and check out
www.goveg.com/feat/chewonthis/chewsheet.pdf
before you get back to me.
K. F. -
Your point about cancer and heart disease, a much trumped point by vegetarians, much of this occurs because vegetarians are on average richer, do more exercise, slimmer and far more concerned with diet, not necessarily just caused by the absence of meat.
-
-
So....that means that factory farms are okay, what about environmental destruction? Oh, and my income is so low as to be a joke, but I still manage. Anyways, what's yout point, just because the health benefits of vegetarianism are augmented by income, exercise and diet concern, why should that cancel out the health benefits of vegetarianism itself.
This is another of your non-arguments
P1: Vegetarians are healthier due to their diet.
P2: The health benefits of vegetarianism are often augmented by higher income, exercise and a conscientious diet.
Therefore, eating meat tastes good...? I don't know, you don't really have a conclusion.
I guess it would be; therefore the benefits of vegetarianism itself may not be as great as often asserted.
This conclusion is still pretty weak. I am sure if we calculated for the difference, the benefits would still be significant.
K. F. -
-
That is precisely my conclusion... How is it weak? Thats all I tried to do point out that lack of meat in a diet correlates to but not necessarily causes a healthy lifestyle.
There is a 100% correlation between breathing and death, yet does this mean that breathing causes death?
-
-
actually...it does..the oxygen that we breath gives us life also breaks down our cells. I can't quite remember the exact biology behind it..i'm sure you could google it, but breathing both gives us life and is killing us
-
Well, it's weak because the causal correlation between vegetarianism and good health is well established - meat contains high levels of cholesterol, fats and toxins which contribute to bad health in a vego - ideally vegan - diet, all these things are cut out, at least in dangerous quantities.
"Most people realize that the cholesterol and saturated fat in animal products can lead to heart attacks. The cause of heart attacks, atherosclerosis (hardening of the arteries), is preventable and even reversible by lifestyle change incorporating a low-fat vegetarian diet." [J. B. Lavine, 'A Medical Perspective on Jewish Diet', 2002 (?)]
Now, I know he says 'lifestyle changes' and so probably means more than just going vegan, however that does not change the fact that there is a causal link between heart disease, for example, and meat consumption and therefore between the reduction of heart disease and the proscribing of mea from one's diet.
Oh, and qwestman is right, oxygen does play a causal role in our deaths. That's why anti-oxidants are always being touted by tea companies....mmmm, I'm gonna drink some tea.
K. F.
-
-
-
-
I read that sheet and yet, it still hasn't really changed my mind. The whole "eating meat is wrong and you're a very bad and sick person if you eat it" argument does very little if nothing for me. I know there were other arguments too. I admit, I may be a bit bias toward humans in this case, when it comes to not killing them for food, while I for some reason don't quite feel the same way about animals. I guess you could say it's part of my "dark side" and that certain people would see me as heartless for speaking like this. If so, then so be it.
As far as the animals that are killed for meat in the US and other animals like cats, dogs, and apes, what difference does it make? Why is it more morally wrong to kill a dog then a pig? As for apes, if their meat is "good" like other meat people may eat, then yes, they could be killed for meat. I know some other cultures eat dogs and other such animals, yet I see people object to that while saying nothing about cows, pigs, and other animals eaten for food here in the US. I guess a select group of people here have a bias toward certain animals. For example, more people would be upset if a rabbit were killed then a snake, because if I'm not mistaken, the "cute factor".
I never said I supported the treatment that those animals go through. As much as my "dark side" can take over sometimes, I don't see myself doing that kind of work in abusing and torturing animals. Before "how can you eat meat and not support that treatment?" comes up, I'm sure it's not impossible for animals to be killed quickly and [mostly] painlessly without going through their whole lives of living in conditions not suitable for any living being and being abused in various ways.
The way I see it, the root of the problem is how the animals are treated before their ready to eat. Yes, I aware that vegetarianism is not eating meat at all and in some cases, are for animal rights and against meat even being produced at all. Remember, I said that's how I see it, not others.
Who knows, someday I might change my mind, but right now, the arguments don't seem to be working for me, which my "dark side" may have some factor in. I am thinking about this subject a bit however. -
-
That's fair enough, there is no real ethical difference between eating a dog and a pig (in fact, I would say that the pig would be worse due to its more developed cognitive faculties). I don't think there is anything intrinsically wrong with eating meat, if I could not survive without it (due to modern society's benefits) then I would certainly eat it. My point with this video was to show people that, unless they raise and kill their own meat, then by eating meat they are supporting torture - and, whatever your views on animal rights, it would be difficult to justify these conditions ethically.
I suppose if you worked hard to get more ethical treatment for such animals perhpas that could 'balance out' the meat-eating, kind of like people who do the carbon-balancing thingy. Who knows?
Glad I've got you thinking.
K. F.
-
-
Actually not all meat is high in fat, meat such as turkey or chicken has a healthy fat quotient. Meat has a great deal of high-quality protein, which is only comparable to eggs. Beef is the largest source of natural creatine.
Dietary cholesterol has a staggeringly small effect on levels of low density lipo-proteins ( the bad cholesterol) and is mostly believed to only have much effect when combined with high levels of saturated fats.
If you compared a meat eaters diet which consisted of exactly the same proportion of nutrients to a vegerain diet, the difference in health would be minimal.
And yes I am fully aware of the effect free-radicals can have on the body, most of which are dealt with effectively by the bodies anti-oxidants. If you are that concerned I suggest not taking in any oxygen for the next year and then coming back to me with your results...
P.s I seem to be unable to reply to your earlier post, that is why it is here. -
-
Fair enough. It's true that chicken and turkey have healthy fat quotients - assuming they are skinned and cooked in a healthy way. I am well aware that meat has health benefits, but I am pretty sure that none of these cannot be gained from a well-balanced vego diet.
I am not saying that it is impossible to be healthy on a meat diet but to be so you have to be "on average richer, do more exercise, (be) slimmer and far more concerned with diet" because most people eat meat that is fried, or even deep fried, and red meat is consumed in vast quantities. I think this whole health debate is getting us sidetracked anyway, here are my points, I think I have a convincing argument.
P1: The treatment of the animals from which most of western societies meat is taken is needlessly cruel, by which it is meant that the animals are subjected to pain, sickness and poor living conditions for the sake of extra profit.
P2: By buying meat from such suppliers one is providing and showing support for such practices.
Therefore: It is, at least, ethically dubious to eat meat unless it can be obtained from suppliers who guarantee ethical treatment of their animals, or one has one's own animals.
P1: Many animal products can be detrimental to health.
P2: A vegan diet eliminates or minimizes such detriment.
P3: A non-vegan diet can be made healthy through conscientious eating habits.
Therefore: While there is no compulsion to eat vegan from the point of view of health, it is a good way to improve one's overall health.
P1: The production of meat for western consumers uses about 70% of grain produced.
P2: This means that most of our food production is used to feed animals which a minority of the world's population eats.
Therefore: It is, at least, ethically, dubious to eat meat, when the land used to feed animals fo slaughter would be more efficiently used to feed humans directly.
P1: Factory farms cause siginificant environmental damage, through animal waste, superfluous water usage, the emission of greenhouse gases (15-20% of all methane emissions). the destruction of marshes, forests etc. and the destruction of topsoil.
P2: The switch to non-animal based diets by a majority of people would help significantly to reduce all of these damages.
Therefore: It is ethically dubious, at least, to eat meat when its production contributes to so many environmental problems.
I think if you put all these arguments together (and I know they aren't all that well presented here) there is a pretty strong case for proscribing animal-products from one's diet, or at least raising one's own animals (in good conditions) for eggs, milk and meat.
As it is difficult for the average Joe to raise his own animals, the ethical duty that comes through strongly is veganism or, at least, vegetarianism.
K. F.
-
-
I can see that you are passionate on this issue, I respect this and understand you have given this much consideration. While I cannot muster the same enthusiasm for the issue, I am sure I have passion for subjects that would not interest you greatly . Therefore I will make you a promise.
I will, whenever the product is available choose the ethically kept/killed version. I am now a market. I am not yet an economically viable prospect but should the market grow and develop due to your efforts then perhaps businesses will change their practices. It would be foolish of me to pretend that I will give up meat, because I will not. Yet I promise you that should ethical alternatives be available I will wield the little purchasing power I control. -
-
I can readily accept that, consumer power can be a very powerful thing and, as I've said, I have no real problem (that is, no problem that I consider to have objective validity) with meat eating provided it is done ethically. This is, indeed, something I am passionate about so I thank you sincerely for your pledge. I truly was not expecting such a thing - I forget that debates can have real life consequences - and, though I am glad about it, I discourage you from doing this if it is only to end this debate or to pacify me. If, however, you feel the force of some of the arguments I have made and this is why you have made your decision, then I commend you strongly for it.
Nice to have debated with you, I hope I was civil.
K. F.
-
-
I would never do such a thing, as attempt to placate you. I simply made this vow as it agrees with my intellectual standpoint on this issue, rather than (as I mentioned at the beginning) a short lived emotional reponse. I have the will power to do this, but it is not a serious change, it is almost like preferring a different brand.
-
-
I have a question for vegitarians that relates to thisHunters(at least in massachusetts), are trained how to humanly kill an animal, its part of a class you have to take to get your hunting license(I've taken the class).Voted for by me alone.
If hunters follow the rules that have been set out for them, are ethical do you support that over animals killed like in the video?
Since laws state they can't kill babies, a mother with young, pregnant females, and such. And there are also bag limits so they aren't killing out a whole population. Also basic hunting ethics says only kill what you are gonna use, and no more then that.
If the hunter follows basic ethics codes, they will be killing the animal quickly, and will kill only whta they need.
How do you all feel about that?
I just want to hear peoples opinions why or why notPlease login or register to comment.Registration is required because of issues with spam. It is fast and free! This author would LOVE to get a comment from you, please join!
-
Adding your comment:
-
I would definitely support such things. Particularly if people were doing their own hunting, as one of my objections to meat-eating is that many (not all) of the people I know who chow down on the stuff never have killed an animal, and say they never could. I think that if people all feel the need to continue consuming meat, and I think many people always will, then the best way to procure it would be through humane hunting. This would help with animal rights, obviously, as animal are hunted and killed for food in nature anyway and, as such, would no longer be confined to concentration camps abbatoirs where they are not allowed to be animals. It would also help with the health and environmental issues: as such practices would necessarily cut down the amount of meat it was possible to procure there would be less consumed and, hence, less of the human health problems that follow from it. As such practices would avoid factory farms and the like it would eliminate the carbon emissions of those places and of the abbattoirs and would also prevent the huge amounts of effluent that factory farms create. Yes, well, obviously I would support that.
Sorry for the incoherent rave, but I'm in a hurry.
K. F. -
I'm Vegetarian... BUT
These practices occur in most cases, true. But, there are other ways. If someone feels determined to eat meat, maybe eating free range is better than factory reared? Although having said that, I don't know why anyone would be determined to eat meat. -
I'm Vegetarian... BUT
These practices occur in most cases, true. But, there are other ways. If someone feels determined to eat meat, maybe eating free range is better than factory reared? Although having said that, I don't know why anyone would be determined to eat meat. -
-
Apparently, in the USA, not in Australia (where I live), there are very few gov. regulations on using the term 'free range' so it doesn't necessarily correspong to different conditions. If you ask me, the only ethical way to consume animal products is to find a supplier who is totally ethical intheir treatment, or to raise some animal yourself. i have my own chickens, for example, and, as they are free to roam around my large backyard and lay their eggs I feel there is nothing wrong with consuming those eggs. If they stop laying or are getting old I might eat one of them (thoug probably not), and that would be fine too, though not ideal.
K. F.
-
-
Registration is required because of issues with spam. It is fast and free! This author would LOVE to get a comment from you, please join!
mudgod
June 6, 2007
Alexander Hine
June 6, 2007
Edit | Reply
K. F.
Alexander Hine
June 6, 2007
Edit | Reply
And, just to get you thinking about what God wants, check this out:
www.goveg.com/pdfs/jewishvegbooklet72.pdf
I don't know if you are Jewish or not, but there are compelling arguments in here anyway.
K. F.
Applehead
June 7, 2007
Edit | Reply
Mud, God may have said eat meat but do you think He finds this acceptable. I hope not. Yeah go out and catch yurself a wild creature. Kill it as soon as possible and enjoy fresh healthy meat. Unfortunately there are way too many of us to do this any more and so the human world moves on down and down into its own spiralling self destruction.
Gyne and Tonic
September 12, 2007
Edit | Reply
hmmm....
I can still eat meat despite the video. Animals must eat other animals to live. That is the sad reality we must live with. I am full aware that beans are a good supplement for meat; however they lack a healthful amount of amino acids, so it is dangerous to depend upon them solely. I do not condone excessive cruelty to animals. It is indeed unfortunate, but as long as we are not depleting a species, I do not think it is entirely cruel, especially since those animals are then going on to support life. The same is done with plants and fossil fuels. Everything we do will harm something.Please register or login to comment! It's totally free