Nationalism is in my view far more deadly than religion could ever be. Nationalism not only creates suicide bombers, it also creates the conditions so people can become that hateful.
Nationalism has been the precursor to practically every war ever occured. It is used to justify genocide, war, dictatorship and racism.
Please give me an example of how being patriotic has ever helped anyone, other than simply lessening the effect of an equally patriotic act.
Nationalism I wash my hands of you...
-
Not NationalismThe three examples you gave were not examples of nationalism. Dresden was manufacturing tanks and the bombs that were being dropped on London. Hiroshima and Nagasaki were done to save American lives at the end of the war. A full scale invasion of Japan would have resulted in even more civilian lives lost.Voted for by bob2314.
Is it your belief that America and England should have sat out the second world war? -
nationalismmust exxist or else we will have religious nations. nationalism is what has made this world as you know it possible... without it everybody would go religiously instead f naationally. the protestants and the catholics bicker all he time... but when when things to further the security, economic status, or health of the nation appear they will join togetherto be able to prosper. without nationalism the USA would not exist for it is this that allows the liberties and rights held their to be pssible. you may believe somthing different than me but by gaully i will fight till my death for your right to believe so. so to tell you the truth... the mere fact that you are able to go against nationilism itself is proof of enough of what good ascome out of it. without it you would be quieted. ppl use the excuse that nationalism is the cause but its not... greed of power is the cause and nationasm is the means through which anything of real significance must pass through. or else its just warring factions. but remember... i may not be gay but by gaully i will fight for your right to be so and treated fairly.Voted for by pnktrky.
-
What I object to in a nut shell.*Nationalism has been the precursor to practically every war ever occured. It is used to justify genocide, war, dictatorship and racism.*Voted for by bob2314.
Nationalism as you describe it is only a tool to unite a country under it's leader it is neather good or evil. in the case of Germany both pre WW 1 & 2 it was greed not nationalism that was the ultimate precursor.
Nationalism is not always evil for example; The post pearl harbor USA, post 9/11 USA. While both examples involved nationalism they were not evil in nature.
The examples you gave; Dresden, Hiroshima, Nagasaki were the results of a war of defence made necessary by Germany & Japan. They are also used by UN justifiers as a whip to flog the US and it's allies.
*The bombing of civilians is never justified, arms manufacturers or no- especially to the extent that Dresden was.*
This comment as it stands is a lie. the bombing of Dresden wasn't about killing civilians. it was about stopping the production of bombs and tanks. To simplify things let me restate MY philosophy of war: War is to be avoided but not at all costs. That is why we have a state dept. When you find the cost of NOT going to war outweighs the cost of going to war you do it and you don't look back. You prosecute that war to the best of your ability. You use every gun, tank, plane, bomb at your disposal in the effort to 1. Shorten that war in your favor 2. Maximize the casualties of your enemy while minimising your own. War is not fair. War was never fair. War will never be fair. Fair is the place you go to watch the pig races. There is no place for fair in warfare. Guns kill people some of those people will be civilians. that is regrettable but not avoidable. once engaged in a war you prosecute that war with grater brutality than does your emeny. EX. if your enemy starts to burns and hangs POWS from bridges you take ALL the POWS you have captured and impale them by the roadside.
*I do not see how a nation-state is beneficial compared to an international government.*
Correct me if i'm wrong but it seems by this statement that you are advocating for the downfall of the structure of gov. as it stands today in favor of the UN or a clone? If so see GURR pt.2
***You would have people from Mexico deciding monsoon relief in India.***
*Spare me your rhetoric. You see how your own nationalism comes out in even simple debate. To a Mexican what you have just said is probably deeply offensive. This is likely to cause dislike/violence, and what has caused this dislike or violence? Your nationalism offending his nationalism.There is nothing intrinsicaly liberal about a nation state, they come in many different political inclinations.*
If I offended pnktrky or anyone else by this statement I apologize. It was not my intent to belittle Mexico or it's fine residents. it was rather an attempt to show just how dumb the idea of INTERNATALISM is. If this example offends you than substitute it with the equally stupid idea of the US managing civil wars.
Adding your reply:
Registration is required because of issues with spam. It is fast and free! This author would LOVE to get a comment from you, please join!
petethemeat
February 10
The bombing of civilians is never justified, arms manufacturers or no- especially to the extent that Dresden was.
Yet this is beside the point, all these actions are solely because of nationalism.
It was nationalistic attitudes that started world war 1, it was nationalistic attitudes that crippled Germany and made it hunger for revenge and in the end it was nationalism that caused World War 2. The very responses that resulted in the deaths of thousands are the result of nationalism, whether in the circumstances it was the right decision or not is irrelevant.
mudgod
February 10
petethemeat
February 11
pnktrky
February 11
petethemeat
February 11
'Did you forget 9/11'- what kind of moron do you take me for?
Terrorism is a much more complicated issue than some would assign it. It is not simply Christian vs Islam. Terrorism is fuelled by enmity of all forms, and most terrorism has been the direct result of nationalism, including the assasination of Archduke Franz Ferdinand, by the Serbian Black Hand. Nationalism also put into place the conditions which resulted in this response.
Take for example the middle east... The prevailing hatred there is to do with Judaism. There is nothing in the Quran that specifically singles out Judaism for disdain, more it is the actions of the Israelis that cause the Palestinians to hate...
Much racism is caused by nationalism. Very few people today argue for the deaths or persecution of people of a different colour. Mainly arguments are centralised around the premise that x country is superior and people from x are white etc.
pnktrky
February 11
petethemeat
February 11
I do not see how a nation-state is beneficial compared to an international government.
pnktrky
February 11
Edit | Reply
bob2314
February 11
GURR pt 2
And here we get to the meat "inter-nationalism" or if we want to be truthful world Communism run by either the UN or a clone. Shall I give you a list of the stellar achievements of the UN over the past few decades? You wish the fools who gave us the mantra of "give sanctions a chance" while secretly rearming Saddam and making a tidy profit too. Oh yes the world run by the UN. government by the authors of Korea, Vet Nam, Rwanda, somalia, Lebanon, Bosnia, and now Iraq. Yes Iraq when the UN could have done some good it stuck it's collective tail between it legs and did what it always does blame the US and run. You would have people from Mexico deciding monsoon relief in India. People from the us deciding food allotments in Finland. People from Iran deciding what constitutes a human rights violation. Oh what a brave new world you would give my daughter! World communism has only worked in one place that i know of STAR TREK.petethemeat
February 12
Edit | Reply
When have I said I desire the UN to govern the world? When have I extolled the virtues of the current UN?
bob2314
February 10
Edit | Reply
GURR!!!
WW1 started because Germany had a treaty with the Ottomans and Germany saw this as an excuse for a land grab.WW2 started because Hitler was a nut and thought he could take on the world. Before Dresden Germany had invaded N. Africa, Poland, Holland and Russia killing civilians and Jews where ever the German army went. So far that doesn't sound like nationalism. What it sound like just another european land grab like so meny others.
When your enemy is producing bombs that will be dropped on your allies you take out the place where the bombs are made. If those bombs are being made in a city in numerous locations and all you have is low tech bombs to take out those manufacturing points that's what you do. or would you rather have seen the fire bombing of London continue? those were civilians too.
Before Hiroshima and Nagasaki Japan had invaded the united states three times pearl harbor, Aleutians and the philippines at that time a us territory.
Your argument makes it sound like the us had nothing better to do on a Sunday afternoon so Truman decided to start throwing nukes around!
and carpet bombing the people of Dresden.
Pete let's give the much maligned USA a brake and talk about the gassing of the Jews gypsies and homosexuals, Cristal night, the ukraine and the reign of terror of the SS, the Nazi youth corp.
the list is endless why is it every time the USA lifts a finger even in defence of it's friends it is demonised?
petethemeat
February 11
Edit | Reply
I am not here to debate the individual reasons and logic behind every action that has taken place in the World Wars.
Nationalism has been the point I have been putting forth. That is nationalism across the globe.
'WW1 started because Germany had a treaty with the Ottomans and Germany saw this as an excuse for a land grab.'
Yes an Imperialist gambit, that would never have occured if nationalistic tendencies did not exist.
'WW2 started because Hitler was a nut and thought he could take on the world. Before Dresden Germany had invaded N. Africa, Poland, Holland and Russia killing civilians and Jews where ever the German army went. So far that doesn't sound like nationalism. What it sound like just another european land grab like so meny others.'
It is Nationalism. Hitlers party was the National Socialist Party. He used his idea of racialism and nationalism to assert that Germans were the master race, and used this as his excuse for genocide. Nationalism was the cause for the land grabs- Imperialism is simply a form of strengthening the nation state.
What caused this to happen? Hitler rose to power because of the nationalism of the French, who desired to cripple Germany after World War 1. The treaty of Versaille was an intensely nationalistic affair, which caused enmity to occur for many years after that.
Who elected Hitler? Nationalists...
My point about the bombing of civilians is not whether it was justified tactically. It is simply that while I felt grief as a child for the Allied civilians for died, I did not feel the same remorse for those poor civilians who died simply for being on the wrong side of the conflict. Perhaps it was necessary for the war to be won in such a way- I am not here to debate the tactical method used, rather I am simply saying that remorse was not felt and why is this? Nationalism as a child.
pnktrky
February 11
Edit | Reply
Applehead
February 11
Edit | Reply
I miss the Waltons. do you remember them lol good old wholesome telly aahh those where the days. wake up on a sunday morning bright as a button have breakfast and watch a fulfilling and loving family go through life in love.
Please register or login to comment! It's totally free