It took a few minutes to figure whether you were talking about Osama or Obama lmao... must be a US thing
Anyways I thought this guy was/is a Christian. His dad was a non strict muslim and his mum was pretty doctrinless if I have read right so I suppose if you take the connection with his father as enough to push you in the suspicious direction then it's possible he could be deceiving us all.
Why would you suspect him otherwise though? plus I dont think the US is prime target for direct control. Bush is hoping that stronger relationships between you guys and the "Euros" will take place possibly because he is aware of the strength such a union could bring seeing as Europe is going to be a force to be reckoned with in one way or another.
Whether he is or he isn't it makes no real difference to what is prophesied to take place. Keep your eye on Jesus and fly like an eagle above all the strife, demoralisation, degradation and eventually complete and utter horror so your soul will be well no matter the surroundings you are in.
Taken from the living Bible edition
Ephisians 6
10 Last of all I want to remind you that your strength must come from the Lords mighty power within you.
11 Put on all Gods armour so that you will be able to stand safe against the stratergies and tricks of satan.
12 For we are not fighting against people made of flesh and blood, but against persons without bodies- the evil rulers of the unseen world, those mighty satanic beingsand great evil princes of darkness who rule this world; and against huge numbers of wicked spirits in the spirit world.
13 So use every piece of God's armour to resist the enemy whenever he attacks, and when it is all over, you will still be standing up.
Taken from Amplified
Ephesians 6
14 Stand therefore [hold your ground], having tightened the belt of truth around your loins and having put on the breastplate of integrity and of moral rectitude and right standing with God,
15 And having shod your feet in preparation [to face the enemy with the firm-footed stability, the promptness, and the readiness produced by the good news of the Gospel of peace
16 Lift up over all the [covering] shield of saving faith, upon which you can quench all the flaming missiles of the wicked [one].
17 And take the helmet of salvation and the sword that the Spirit wields, which is the Word of God.
18 Pray at all times (on every occasion, in every season) in the Spirit, with all [manner of] prayer and entreaty. To that end keep alert and watch with strong purpose and perseverance, interceding in behalf of all the saints (God's consecrated people).
God is so good! we are supplied with armour which has not physical being lmao why?? because the battle is not a physical one but a spiritual.
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Dwn
June 15
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Weydon
June 15
I personally don't care too much what his religion is as long his religious practices are not malicious ones. This is one of the few cases where I do see at least SOME merit in his religious background, as he is actually familiar with both Christian and Muslim traditions--could come in handy in today's world. Otherwise, it doesn't really matter much.
"Close to Jesus Christ in a lot of ways yet he was human and so had a past which exposes insecurities which possibly gave the enemy a doorway into his emotions and prevented him from becoming a Christian"
I love my faith, and am gracious for it. But I do not see a person's lack of conversion to my own faith as a weakness they have. I like to believe that overall I am a decent person, and believe I usually try my best to do the right thing. I hope that even with my faults, there are far worse people out there comparatively. But I do not believe I am in a position to be criticizing GANDHI for not being more like ME.
Applehead
June 16
He did in his wisdom recognise that an eye for an eye makes the whole world blind. He did however, like all us humans have faults one of those being insecurity brought about by reasons unknown to me. This manifest as beating his wife and also taking offence to christianity which I personally think is a very great shame. This may not be the only signs of insecurity they are the only ones I am aware of. His wife is recorded as having helped him to see the error in his ways and Gandhi is reported to have said it was because of his realisation for the need for humilty with regards his wife that he became the person he was.
No where have I tried to express my superiority over Gandhi it is rediculous that I even have to point that out. It is fair to make an observation though do you not think. Judgement and observation are different things are they not.
I must also express in all honesty that I do believe anyones position when not with God is a weakness. We are all far from God at present some further than others and we should all seek Him with our whole heart. He is the only way, the only truth and the only life. It is said in the Word that it is better to be cold than to be lukewarm (rev 3:16) so for me yes it is a weakness that none of us are with God, it is a weakness that we do not all desire to be with God always, all of the time, day and night, when happy when sad. He should be the first person we speak to in the morning and the last at night. We should be aware of His very presence every second of the day. Everything we do should give Him reverance. Why? because He loves us, because we love Him. Because we should not be here in this world of death destruction lies immorality simply put in sin. God did not want this for us. Our Father does not want to see people suffering emotionally, physically, mentally or spiritually. Yet we do, why? because we are here. In the world away from Him we have chosen to put ourselves before Him we moved away from His protection, His love and guidance His blessing. We moved into the realm of the enemy who only desires to destroy us to satisfy his great envy. We were given by the grace of God freewill and we used that freewill to our own demise and now we have left our spiritual nest we fail because like children we cannot do things in our own strength. We need God, our Father, our teacher our friend. Again I say it is weakness to be away from God whether we like it or not.
Weydon
June 16
Fair enough. But what about the offense and outrage Jesus took to Temple being used as an area to trade goods? I'm not sure if indignation is a weakness--in fact while humanity has its faults and it may be best to be a being beyond its weakness, being INHUMAN and not outraged at injustice and wrongness could also be perceived as a fault.
"To make myself understood I say I do not agree with these christians behaviour at all. I did not want to criticise Gandhi for not being a Christian (shock horror)."
But you did say "he was human and so had a past which exposes insecurities which possibly gave the enemy a doorway into his emotions and prevented him from becoming a Christian" So what if he was prevented to becoming a Christian? Are you not saying this was a fault of his that held him back from being something greater?
Applehead
June 18
It was his offence which held him back from what could have been his calling yes. Christians are not greater than others. I will not be coaxed into selfrighteousness. God is great and good above all things. Gandhi himself recognised the greatness of Jesus words and put them into practice without giving honour where it was due. It has been said that Gandhi was hypocritical in his true beliefs and his outward expressions of humilty were not aligned to his true feelings for society outside of his own ideals. He has been quoted as writing that he had expressed to his son that if his life be threatened his son should defend him at all costs, yet he himself spoke against such action publicly.
No one is perfect except for Jesus which is why we should be eternally grateful for our salvation.
Weydon
June 18
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Jesus is God. Taking "personal offense" to someone practicing racism and prejudice against you is a bit of a stretch to be considered a fault. Is only a non-Asian allowed to be RIGHTEOUSLY angered at Asian discrimination, otherwise it's just a petty personal offense?
"
It was his offence which held him back from what could have been his calling yes. Christians are not greater than others."
You think Gandhi, and all people, would have been greater if they were Christians, but you don't want to be seen as elitist--so you say one thing and then contradict yourself by saying that's not what you believe to cover your bases. It doesn't add up.
"He has been quoted as writing that he had expressed to his son that if his life be threatened his son should defend him at all costs, yet he himself spoke against such action publicly."
And should parents be allowed in the jury of a crime their child is accused of? I get it, Gandhi was human, I never said otherwise. I'm just saying he did a lot better than I've ever done, and I don't think I'm in a position to be giving him pointers on how to be better: Convert to my religion.
knconstantinople
June 16
Which Jesus do you believe in? non sarcastically. Literal (bible as fact), Mythological, family man, or maybe the metaphoric Jesus that is really all of humanity?
I suppose if one was sound with Jesus and the bible as fact it would be easy to criticize anybody who somehow was compared to this literal jesus. If Jesus was or is literally the son of god there should never be a comparison.
But as I do not believe in a literal Jesus, the comparison can stand for me. Both men (if you believe in Jesus' existence) or ideals (for the mythological or metaphorical takers) can take criticism in this case.
Applehead
June 16
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Jackymania
June 17
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There appears to be utter and real confusion about Gandhi { Gan - as in Gha of GHANA - the country, and dhi - as in the word 'thee' of old use] and Jesus - The Christ. If at all one indulges in comparative studies, how can two figures who are almost two milleniums apart be compared. This is childish. And to compare events in their life is more so. This is in fact very teenish, i should say. This ofcourse brings us to the possibility that there are teens out here.
Philosophcally age does not matter. And any comparative philosophy is a legitimate exercise for good people to indulge in.
I am sorry to say, that apple if she quotes "His greatest loss was he took offence too easily", has no idea of what Gandhi lived through and what he meant and said. How does one explain that a man who took kicks, slaps and lathi's (long batons or sticks) with a smile on his face, takes offense so easily. This violence was perpetrated by this very christians - the believer of christ.
Let me tell you this, it is Gandhi who taught a christian what christianity is all about by following the example and teaching of Christ till his very death.
In fact i feel offended by such wordings and particularly when it comes from apple who as Dwn pointed out has been very sensible in her almost all previous post ( that i have read).
And talking about insecurity, keeping or thinking of ones security is the first and foremost innate feeling and thoughts that come into any animals including humans.
Sticking to the point of security, there is a perceptible feeling that one can gather from this post of a sense of insecurity creeping with the nomination of Obama. This has ruffled many feathers and flights of fears have taken off from there secure niches. One can see the provocation and the distortion in the title of this topic itself.
Other example, in this very post, is the apologetical attitude in defending Jesus - and comparing him with mortals like Gandhi. Yet continuing to claim that he is Son of God. Very contradictory and ironical.
Applehead
June 18
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I did not want to suggest that Gandhi could or should measure up with the majesty and magnificence that is our Lord Jesus Christ, how could I. Gandhi, as I tried to point out did respect Jesus and did look at the Christian faith with an open mind until he was offended. It is this offence which prevented him from becoming a Christian which in my opinion is his greatest loss. i do not wish to suggest he did not sarifice greatly in his lifetime. I am not suggesting that I think he didn't do great things yet he could have done better. It is an observation and opinion on my part that he should and could have been a Christian which, and I repeat, would have been interesting to see, because he could have done even more awesome things both for the world and most importantly for God. the devil however has a very sneaky way of using our emotions against us and so preventing us from reaching our full potential.
"And talking about insecurity, keeping or thinking of ones security is the first and foremost innate feeling and thoughts that come into any animals including humans."
Unfortunately you are right yet I do not see that just because people accept this as truth it has to be so. Spiritual evolution is much more important than physical biological evolution. people get so stuck and comfortable with themselves that they are fearful of change. We should however embrace self improvement.
"If anyone desires to come after Me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross."
"Other example, in this very post, is the apologetical attitude in defending Jesus - and comparing him with mortals like Gandhi. Yet continuing to claim that he is Son of God. Very contradictory and ironical. "
In my humble honesty I apologise only for my lack of communication skills not for claiming/declaring/believing/knowing that Jesus is the son of God and I have not compared him with Gandhi. Only, as stated above that Gandhi could have been better, as we all could. offence here within these posts has taken away from the discussion itself and has become more of an attack and defend discussion rather than a well yeah we all need to improve or well actually no I think we should all stay just as we are seeing as we are doing such a good job.
Having what was intended to be complimentary with slight critique turn into a witch hunt for supposed Gandhi abusers is lacking in attraction for me. I'm sure Gandhi did an awesome job of setting an example to a lot of Christians I must point out that his failing in this area is that he did not confess Jesus as Lord which is hardly helpful as a Christian example. He had the makings yet was possibly not able to fulfill Gods calling because of the said offence he took. Why was Gandhi not a Christian if he so followed Gods Word? mistreatment and abuse of Gandhi not only came from Christians it is unfortunate that he was, as I'm sure you are aware, assainated by a Hindu.
Weydon
June 18
Applehead
June 18
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Jackymania
June 19
You take offense very easily! ..
hey you got emotional. You are claiming victimisation when nothing of that sort had taken place. Why use words like 'witch hunting'. Sorry to say this but this is a bad defense.
Lets talk on the issue you postulate. He was killed by his own brothers, is the reason why he is called a martyr. He defended the undefensive agianst his own clan's will. He lived a highly moral and ethical life which no man on earth can emulate easily. He is a living legend. He said 'i have nothing to teach to the world except his life.' His life was his example. He made his life an open book with no windows and doors to keep any secrets. His life is so open to scrutiny and criticisms becuase he wanted to keep it that way.
"...... that he should and could have been a Christian which, and I repeat, would have been interesting to see, because he could have done even more awesome things both for the world and most importantly for God."
A desire that wil and cannot take place now. He died a devout Hindu..... acquiring great acclaim and respect from superior and intelligent men all over the world. He was a true believer in God.
Just because he did not accept the church, doesnot made him any less an individual. In fact it was his strength, wisdom and knowledge that must have prevented him from falling into the propaganda of christian missionaries of that time. many tried to woe. but he did not succumb. Remember even Jesus did not fall into the traps of the devil. So did Gandhi.
And to remind even Jesus had a past, So did Gandhi. I remember an old adage 'Every Saint had a past'. so true, isn't it?
Applehead
June 20
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Dont we all...
"In fact i feel offended by such wordings and particularly when it comes from apple who as Dwn pointed out has been very sensible in her almost all previous post ( that i have read)."
Ha this may be true, it does not take away that people presumed I was attacking Gandhi and so decide that trying to emotionally blackmail me to hopefully weaken my stance. I welcome constructive criticism and have accepted and been humbled here on this board but this is hardly helpful with respect to my participation. In this case I do not see any need to change my position as I have not taken away from the great things Gandhi did only brought to light what else should have occured. If you feel his reputation cannot hold up to such that is for you to decide.
"A desire that wil and cannot take place now. He died a devout Hindu..... acquiring great acclaim and respect from superior and intelligent men all over the world. He was a true believer in God.
Just because he did not accept the church, doesnot made him any less an individual. In fact it was his strength, wisdom and knowledge that must have prevented him from falling into the propaganda of christian missionaries of that time. many tried to woe. but he did not succumb. Remember even Jesus did not fall into the traps of the devil. So did Gandhi."
Are you comparing????
Gandhi was awesome I am have not said otherwise he was not without sin though he like us was human. I am wondering what "past" Jesus had that you are refering to.
Jackymania
June 20
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I had perviously mentioned that comparing philosophy's can be construed as legitimate (intellectually stimulating) exercise. Therefore if two persons are fighting evil in the form of a devil, the means and reasons can be philosophically compared.
Comparison may normally include attributes of opposites (in philosophy and policy's), similarity (in policy matters or lifestyle or situation) and in case of material - advantages and disadvantages.
In a debate, it is very much a right to point of mistakes ( of data, facts, judgement, assessment, perspective etc) in the light of certain other facts that can be put forth.
It is posible that pointing out mistakes may be taken as 'witch hunting'. But i wish you all the best in defending yourslef. However what concerns me more is the truth of facts and opinion.
I have all the highest regards for you but has to point out the mistakes, like a brother, in whatever you had said or may postulate.
You mentioned ...his greatest loss..... may i know what loss you are talking about. ?
Further down the same para you say,
your quote: "yet he was human and so had a past which exposes insecurities which possibly gave the enemy a doorway into his emotions and prevented him from becoming a Christian."
If one takes the two sentence, there appear to be a very selfish inner desire to see Gandhi as a christian, which is normal and natural. (I had already talked before, about the insecurity aspect a little bit)
But if so, it is a victory for Gandhi.
I will ignore your other retorts and rhetoricals, which i consider a legitimate debating tools or weapon.
Applehead
June 20
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EDIT
Due to the below section of text becoming such a distraction from what in my opinion is the most important section of my post I have decided to cut and post it here. Anybody who is wondering why we are discussing Gandhi above please read below."Gandhi was a good guy he understood that physical war is a mugs game. His greatest loss was he took offence too easily. I mean he had the right ideas. Close to Jesus Christ in a lot of ways yet he was human and so had a past which exposes insecurities which possibly gave the enemy a doorway into his emotions and prevented him from becoming a Christian. Now that would have been interesting to see."
The "offence" I am reported as taking is brought about after what some (including me) might see as a manipulation and typical example of how sneaky the enemy tries to be. Instead of recognising the power of scripture everyone is discussing what I, in my naivity posted as an after thought. Frustrated though I have been I hopefully know have remedied the problem somewhat.
Jesus is Lord and stands before ALL in importance, all honour glory and power are His and no work against Him shall prosper (even my mistakes as a Christian toddler
Applehead
June 20
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Jackymania
Thank you, as always, for you patience and respectful mannerI shall start by quoting myself
"His greatest loss was he took offence too easily"
Gandhi was in high school when he took such offence. So I say that it is possible he held onto this bad feeling throughout his life as he kept his dislike for "Christianity" even though he held Jesus in such high regard. Theorise with me for a moment if you will. Gandhi a young man with such a future ahead of him the potential to influence so many for (in my own opinion/belief) THE living God, but he was insulted personally by Christians. The people whom God desired for him to minister to about Jesus Christ, was later unable to turn a blind eye to these insults even into his older age of wisdom. His humility was not from the heart but became possibly a trap. Pride itself created strength in the form of humilty, pride kept Gandhi away from Christianity and the call to teach Christians directly how to be better Christians and instead pride built a wall and held him in place to reject and stay firm as a Hindu.
I do not write this to undermine the person he was. My intention is to learn from even such a great mans downfall. It is offense which creates unrest/division/War. How ironic is it that Gandhi the icon of peace for so many could quite possibly have been kept back from an even higher calling.
for your reference:
M.K.Gandhi
An Autobiography or The Story of My Experiments with Truth.
"In Rajkot, however, I got an early grounding in toleration for all branches of Hinduism and sister religions. For my father and mother would visit the Haveli as also Shiva's and Rama's temples, and would take or send us youngsters there. Jain monks also would pay frequent visits to my father, and would even go out of their way to accept food from us-non-Jains. They would have talks with my father on subjects religious and mundane.
He had, besides, Musalman and Parsi friends, who would talk to him about their own faiths, and he would listen to them always with respect, and often with interest. Being his nurse, I ften had a chance to be present at these talks. These many things combined to inculcate in me a toleration for all faiths.
Only Christianity was at the time an exception. I developed a sort of dislike for it. And for a reason. In those days Christian missionaries used to stand in a corner near the high school and hold forth, pouring abuse on hindus and their gods. I could not endure this. I must have stood there to hear them once only, but that was enough to dissuade me from repeating the experiment. About the same time I heard of a well-known hindu having been converted to Christianity. It was the talk of the town that, when he was baptized, he had to eat beef and drink liquor, that he also had to change his clothes, and that henceforth he began to go about in European costume including a hat. These things got on my nerves. Surely, thought I, a religion that complelled one to eat beef, drink liquor, and change one's own clothes did not deserve tha name. I also heard the new convert had already begun abusing the religion of his ancestors, their customs and their country. All these things created in me a dislike for Christianity."
Was it not Gandhi's desire to become sinless, better than.
"I do not seek redemption from the consequences of my sin. I seek to be redeemed from sin itself, or rather from the very thought of sin. Until I have attained that end, I shall be content to be restless." ref as above.
Does this sound like humity before God?
I realise I am in danger of being seen as judgemental. My heart feels this is not so as all hope is on truth gained by observation and pondering.
"If one takes the two sentence, there appear to be a very selfish inner desire to see Gandhi as a christian"
Please explain why my motives are selfish? It makes no difference to me now as to whether Gandhi was Christian. Possibly if he had been, the world would be very different. So many more people of Indian origin and elsewhere would possibly be Christian which would in my belief mean that they would be saved from hell. This Jacky is not of my personal benefit as a desire more so that they themselves are saved from eternal hell.
Do you possibly suggest that I am only trying to come out on top in this debate? If so I believe and hope this is not true as I have tended to back down when necessary in the past and hope to do so in the future.
Truth is of all importance, Gandhi was absolutely correct about that. My interest in this autobiography has been rekindled and will enjoy rereading
Jackymania
June 21
Understanding Gandhi
Hi Apple.Thanks - you are back to your gracious best.
I am glad you are reading on Gandhi by Gandhi himself. In India, we call him Mahatma-ji as a mark of respect.
You have asked several questions and made some strong comments. Which needs to be appreciated. And for the record, i may not have said or have not said before is that you had indeed some valid points in your original commentary on Biblical words and how it will eventually work out better for all.
For eg: "......Spiritual evolution is much more important than physical biological evolution. people get so stuck and comfortable with themselves that they are fearful of change. We should however embrace self improvement"
and...
"......I did not mean to directly compare Gandhi with Jesus other than to show that Gandhi recognised the wisdom of God through Christ. Gandhi has been quoted on this page which I agreed with and also referred to yet people don't appear to recognise that Gandhi took that wisdom from the Bible. I did wish to point out that we are all human and even Gandhi had his flaws."
But lets look at this a bit more objectively. Here in the latest post just above, you have quoted Gandhi to defend or prove your perspective about Gandhi.
I am afraid that you have unwittingly exposed some of your anxiety about Gandhi and his belief's, if not your insecurity. However as a true believer in truth you have set forth into a dialogue about Gandhi, the personality, his life and his beliefs.
It would have been better if we could have talked about beliefs and philosophies, but your inquisitive mind, like all of us here - needs those answers which will settle the yearning to know in our mind, would also like to talk on his past life. ref: your reading and quating his autobiography
One thing that stands out about Gandhi among other contemporary thinkers and philosophers was his belief of keeping his life open to scrutiny. No other person ever born had nor has the temerity to keep his life an open chapter such as him. He did on his own voluntary thought and deed.
If your are reading him, you will realise that he had all frailities of an average person. And to judge him from his own admissions and mistakes is itself a great mistake. Mistakes that critics do often. And you should know that he wrote that autobiography in early 1920s. He died almost three decades later.
To know about some one, you should make it a point to read his biographers too. There are too many at the bookshelf to chose from. There are many who have written on him , and he may probably be the only person on whom so many biograhical accounts are published. Not even Mother Theresa's story has so many life history.
One reason i believe could be the manner in which Gandhi chose to lead and live his life. It was so open to scrutiny. For ex. this may shock many and especially youths and members of the morally high class society that he used to sleep naked with two of his female assistants - one being his relative. For him it was an experiment. You will find this account from the great man himslef. Which means any one could get into his bedroom or his living quarters. Why he did it, we can discuss it later.
The story of this man is extraordinary and not evn the stories written in the bible can match. This is my personal opinion, having read the Bible several times and studying Gandhism in fairly good detail. If some one thinks otherwise i have no problems with that.
But since you have raised some valid questions which you feel needs answer than let me start with one observation you make above.
Your quote:
".... So many more people of Indian origin and elsewhere would possibly be Christian which would in my belief mean that they would be saved from hell. This Jacky is not of my personal benefit as a desire more so that they themselves are saved from eternal hell."
I will take up issues with you on such concepts called 'eternal hell', 'saving from hell' 'being christian' 'higher calling' etc. a little later.
First let me point out your mistakes.
you say "...... Gandhi himself recognised the greatness of Jesus words and put them into practice without giving honour where it was due."
You are so wrong, that I sincerely wish you had not written this. A few examples: Gandhi, in fact had a frame of Jesus Christ in his office when he worked in S Africa. He had the greatest regards for christianity.. In a facsist regime like that under Mussoulini - he agreed to go to Rome - one to talk peace if possible but more importantly to visit the Vatican. In his ashram and public prayer meetings he took out the best hymns and prayers from the Bible apart from the Koran and The Gita. This was as in late a 1948s before he died. His deeds speaks more than his owrds unlike some priest and minister who are the real hypocrats - in my opinion.
You follow ......."It has been said that Gandhi was hypocritical in his true beliefs and his outward expressions of humilty were not aligned to his true feelings for society outside of his own ideals."
Why have you not considered the ideals. His own ideals were the only possession he had. He forgo all his wealth, his property his wife and his children for an higher ideal. It was his higher calling...and that is not only to liberate and give freedom to his 300 million bretheryn' from the tyranny and perscution of the British rulers, (but also change the social structure og the Hindu systems, including the caste system, untouchability, upliftment of underprivilaged, the poor, the women, the widows, dignity to children and other minorities.) [()...this was added later, as somehow the sentence was left incomplete.]
A man who walks in his loins so that he resembles the poor he reperesents is hypocritical?. I have never seen such a mockery of judgement and good sense. Yes, he may have been adamant and arrogant too, but please not an hypocritical.
You say"......I did wish to point out that we are all human and even Gandhi had his flaws"
You are damn right out here. Gandhi had many flaws. You now why we Indians revere him, is because he had the courage and boldness and most importantly the intellignec and knowledge to know and again importantly say it out loudly about his flaws. Which leader in this era or of that gone past before christ, during christ and after christ had ever so loudly talked about his own flaws. I feel ashamed that i cannot even say 'sorry' with my heart even as hypocritically it has become a fashion to blurt out sorry and thanks after every sentence in a formal environment these days.
You say......"I'm sure Gandhi did an awesome job of setting an example to a lot of Christians I must point out that his failing in this area is that he did not confess Jesus as Lord which is hardly helpful as a Christian example."
You are considerate on 'his jobs awesomeness' but you have not considered his deeds nor his life completely as stated before. Moreover, confess to whom and for what? His words and his deeds is itslfe a confession. It was so open that he had nothing to confess and who was so great as he to confess. For eg. When he realised his mistakes he confessed to his wife of his inconsiderate demands of high behaviour from his wife and according to his wishes. His confession was later confessed to others through his letters and writings.
And if in the likelihod of your suggesting that he should have accepted Jesus as his lord, than you are highly mistaken for you think he followed Christ as a follower, and yet did not acknowledge. No sir. He derived his ideals, philosophy and a living policy from many sources. You have no idea of on what all aspects of a human life he has dwelt on. You are seeing him in a very narrow perspective. And i think you perspective is only that of a christian. He was a naturalist, an environmentalist, a social reformer, a labour leader, a ambulance corp member in two wars, includng one world war; lawyer, a peacemaker, a religionist, a spiritualist and a philosopher.
He was also a great reader. Here we have a library - housed at Mani Bhavan, of the books he owned and read. The list numbers upto 50,000 books.
He was also a revolutionist, But he lead a revolutionary movement not seen nor heard anywhere else in the world. A nonviolent freedom struggle. It is possible that man and woman who have lived at times of great prosperity and individual freedom has got no inkling of the cherished goals of humanity and the struggle one had endure to attain those goals of liberty, and equality.
To believe that non-violence and the principles of the Kingdom of God is derived from Christ teaching is a false belief. Before Christ, India gave birth to religion like Jainism and Budhism led by Mahavir Jain and Gautama Buddha who not only taught but practised non-violence. Jainsim and Buddhism both spread through out blotting out the earlier Vedic religion. However, it is in the higher laws of the Vedas (2500- 1500 BC) that ahimsa and respect for each individuals and all other living beings including insects was enshrined. Whereas in the west they were treated as vermins- a concept unknown to India.
Now, let me turn the clock round. It may shock you but i would say that it was Jesus who refused to acknowledge the contribution of India's philosophy into his doctrine.
If truth is of all importance than let truth prevail.
And since you mentioned that you also will to observe and ponder, you also need to think hard and analyse. Here is one message that Gandhi has for all of us. A conversation between him and his friend's wife. This may dispell your fear of him not confessing or honouring christ. He, in a nutshell here gives his philosophy about religions and their usefullness and limitations too.
".....to be a good Hindu also meant that I would be a good Christian. There was no need for me to join your creed to be a believer in the beauty of the teachings of Jesus or try to follow His example," he said.
"What do you think is the essential lesson for man in the teaching of Christianity?" Gandhi asked Millie. "I could think of two or three. But one that stands out strongest is "One is your Master Christ and all ye are brethren," said Millie. "Yes," replied Gandhi, "and Hinduism teaches the same great truth and Mohammedanism and Zoroastrianism, too."
Derived from Millie Graham Polak's book Gandhi, The Man.by Jyotsna Kamat
http://www.kamat.com/mmgandhi/christian.htm
Thanks for your patience and for bearing me out this far.
PS: By describing gandhi and his occupations, i am not comparing anyone else.
Applehead
July 3
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Hello Jacky
Firstly I really appreciate you taking the time to help me get to know Gandhi a little better. Please understand my intentions are such and awhile back I did the very same questioning of Jesus Christ right before I gave my life to Him. Looking at things from all angles helps us gain greater understanding as I'm sure you are aware.Gandhi's motives seem undeniably honourable. As I read though I feel such sadness that a man with wholly good objectives and who dedicates his life to finding truth never actually does. When all things worldly are taken into account Ahimsa as a truth cannot exist in this world. In the kingdom of God it is more likely (almost definate) but here in the world death reigns and violence will occur be it intentional or accidental. I'm all for Gandhi's wholehearted efforts to instill an act which prevents physical harm to anybody or anything unfortunately though we are far more complex than simply physical so even if we overcame this we would still fail. Humans are weak in all respects we are lead by our emotions most of the time and have to work hard to make things otherwise. Even with our greatest efforts we become trapped in a spiral of fears, desires, hopes, dreams mostly for ourselves. The ego holds so much power. Nothing we do can be humble enough to be completely pure.
I pray that after physical death we are given the chance to give our lives over to Jesus. If anyone deserves this opportunity it is Gandhi. This quote taken from the afore mentioned book is printed in the introduction which was written in november 1925. It almost brought me to tears.
"For it is an unbroken torture to me that I am still so far from Him Who, as I fully know, governs every breath of my life, and whose offspring I am. I know that it is the evil passions within that keep me so far from Him, and yet I cannot get away from them."
Everytime we sin the Lord Jesus holds in His hands the precious blood He shed for us. His pure sinless blood is our redemption. When we accept Jesus as Lord and Saviour we accept the blood of the Lamb and our sins are covered by His blood and most gracious and holy sacrifice. "Evil Passions" can be stopped not in our own strength but through Christ.
Phil 4.13
"I can do all things through Christ who strengthens me."
It is interesting that so there are similarities between so many of the religions. Jesus is still Lord even if these three are linked. This I know by spiritual truth by experience of the Holy Spirit and by physical manifestation of the power of God. The times I may feel away from God are few and these are times when I have not kept my path narrow and have allowed the world to creep in. There is only one way and that way is Jesus.
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