Does anyone here actually have experience with being in Italy and seeing how they treat the Roma which is the not offensive word for their people?
They are treated really badly and looked down on in Italy. You got gypped is as accurate in its implications as the statement "You're so gay i.e you're so stupid" or " He jewed me down" None of those have truth to them.
I lived in Italy and the Roma live in extreme poverty- they live on the only land they can- and that really isn't hurting anyone. Gypsy implies that they are from Egypt which they originally aren't its an offensive term btw. People that prey are often poor and running out of choices- regardless of who or what they are.

Advocate: The Italians are fingerprinting all their gypsies. That is race discrimination! It is profiling! That is the same as right-wingers like Hitler exterminating millions, and we all know only right-wingers (like you) condone race extermination!

Thinker: First, you are sinking to over-generalizing and stereotyping, and I try not to go there!
Second, it sounds like gypsies live in camps on the outskirts of the society that they illegally squat in. Whether that is completely true or not, it is in their culture and history to prey on the locals. For example the term "You got gypped" (cheated) is derived from that history.
I cannot hold fault with that society in singling them out as one of many measures in combating street crime, though the media paints the distorted picture that it is the only measure the Italians are taking.
Third, do not throw around Hitler analogies so loosely. Fingerprinting gypsies is a far cry from Hitler’s Final Solution, and belittles the millions of Holocaust victims by grouping them with the fingerprinted.
Third, as for mass murder by 20th century right-wing dictatorships, you might as well get off that high-horse, for if you are a left-winger, you’re in hypocritical good company with thugs like Stalin, Mao, Pol-Pot, Castro, and Kim Jung Il et. al. with tens of millions of murders between them, more to keep themselves in perpetual power than from any weak Marxist idealism. If you want to be an activist, start there, where real murders are still being carried out by such idealists (or the thugs who take perpetual control of such susceptible leftist governments, then mass-kill in the guise of such idealism).

Advocate: So that is why they call you a thinker, huh? But just fingerprinting and deporting gypsies to combat street crime is an over-reactionary, over-generalized, stereotyping measure, for not all gypsies are thieves and beggars, and they should be treated equally with the rest of the groups in that society.

Thinker: First, the fallacy of that argument is that all groups should be treated equal, regardless of their behavior. I do not buy into that view. if a group wants equal treatment, they will conduct themselves equally with the better segments of society.
Second, for a government not to act in an over-generalized manner entails God-like micromanagement, and I will not impose any god-like ideals on any mortal man or institution. Interesting for another topic- that liberals are godless, yet hold others to godlike ideals...

Advocate: The gypsies are victims of economic status, and are being discriminated against by people who “have”.

Thinker: First, I don’t know about your “have’s”, but the have’s on my side of the planet all come from recent have-not backgrounds. Most of them came here with nothing, and pulled themselves up by their own bootstraps through hard work, morals, and values. If you want me to knock the haves on my side of the planet in a stereotyping way, you can forget it!
Second, the fallacy of your argument assumes that the gypsies do not exercise choice, and do not know right from wrong. The gypsies are people, just like us; they live the lives they live by choice- they prefer their romantic, exciting day-to-day existence, and probably ridicule the college-educated office worker who works from 9 to 5. They know the right paths to take in life- those of education and occupation, but choose not to follow them. Like our ghetto culture here in America, they probably value street-smarts over academic smarts. I am close enough to the bottom rung of society to know enough not to have any pity on them for the consequences of their own choices, blind prejudices, and actions. To me, fingerprinting them, and even deporting them if they are illegals, is giving them a gentle nudge in the right direction.

Advocate: But we should do something, we can't just stand by!

Thinker: This reminds me of a dialogue I had with foreigners about the ghettos here in America. The foreigners accused me of being racist because I deplored the ghettos, while they emulated our ghetto culture in obtuse ways. I chastized them for romanticizing about and criticizing what they know nothing about, and from a safe distance, while I had to deal with the problem first hand, beginning at the city gas pumps! In that sense I will not tell the Italians how to deal with their gypsy problem from afar, as long as they don't have mass murder and world domination on their minds.
I'm suspecting that you've derived much of your information from the media, if they are to be trusted, and they are not, having been overrun by drug-addicted sexual deviants and Marxist idealists (if you'll allow me a generalization), and having fallen victim to the current journalistic dogma of presenting the "new and unusual", and the "different perspective", even though that amounts to being proponents of the sick and twisted more often than not these days.

Advocate: So you are saying that the gypsies do no good for humanity?

Thinker: As I think deeply about it on a philosophical level, they just may, for none of us know which paths in life will most ensure the survival of our species. It is quite likely that it is the path of the dumb fool who reproduces the most, and as such, the gypsies should be protected and have special status, like a national treasure, much like the Amish here in America. That would give the Italian government a measure of that liberal godliness that the left is demanding from them, through their magnanimously granting such groups special favors; the kind of godliness that liberals aspire to in their non-religious, vote-buying ways.

Advocate: I see nothing in your arguments except superficial thoughts, and you just can’t see the implications- fingerprinting today, mass-murder tomorrow.

Thinker: I considered the implications, but Italy today is in no way, shape, or form 1930’s Germany. Only a fool would make that comparison. Today Italy is an open society with a check-an-balance government while Germany was run by a dictator who used mass political murder to gain and maintain power.
On a softer note I can see the comparison being used as a cautionary warning to Italy, but here it is being used as an accusation and a foregone conclusion, perhaps for effect, perhaps out of hysteria, perhaps out of an obsessive anti-authoritarianism born of the 60's, but most likely from being typical liberal tyrants desiring to lord it over everyone like some kind of one-eyed-blind backwards gods who refuse to see the failings of their own defective ideologies, if you ask me.

Advocate: Are you serious? Fingerprinting based on race is no different than the Nazi’s tattooing and yellow star programs. You are just a typical uninformed American who thinks superficially.

Thinker: First, if you are serious about the Italian’s next step being the extermination of gypsies, then I cannot take you seriously; if you are emotionally attached to that shallow, being-popular-on-the-left view, then I am wasting my time with you- you have too much thinking through to do on the issue, and on politics in general.
Second, about your constant personal attacks- you know, you are not the first liberal smartass to resort to such personal attacks when your cliché arguments are shown to be wanting. I can shoot the personal insults right back if you insist on being a kooky political novice.

Advocate: You are a joke! The EU Parliament already smacked the fingerprinting down! Do not bother me with your childish views again!
(stomps out like a wounded tyrant)

Thinker: Yes, Advocates love their smacking, errant as it is- gives them a feeling of power. Well, if I were Italy, I'd tell the EU to shove it- that I wasn't going to be dictated to by a bunch of twisted sophists blinded by leftist idealism. What makes the EU think fingerprinting the gypsies is a bad idea- nothing but blind idealism, the same thing Hitler used in his Final Solution.




Thinker: So let me continue thinking about this issue, since the Advocate abandoned me, for people get away with such views because others cannot formulate reasonable responses. I saw it all in the 60's.

Let me give the rest of you Advocates your first two lessons in thinking things through- first, on open and closed societies, and then about what real activism for human rights and lives would entail today.

First, in pondering open/closed societies, you will realize that there is nothing to be concerned about in Italy as long as Italy remains open. You will deduce that as soon as Italy shows signs of becoming a closed society, then there is cause for concern and actions should be taken. As a typical example, the advocate would be asked, “What was the first thing the Communist Chinese regime did before running students over with tanks in Tiananmen Square?” They would find that the answer is that the ChiComs shut down foreign journalists, closed the borders, jailed all dissidents, and manipulated and controlled the media, endeavoring to keep their actions a secret.

Second, as for a real concern for human rights and lives, the Thinker would challenge the Advocates to go bother a currently closed society, such as leftist North Korea and their god-emperor Kim Jung Il. The Advocate would then find that such a leader cannot and will not be bothered, because he runs a closed society, barring such bothersome Advocates from peering in. They will find that he keeps complete control over his own country’s media in order to hide his crimes and aggrandize himself to maintain perpetual power. they'll find that there is only one radio station allowed in North Korea, the Kim Jung Il radio station...

The Thinker would then illustrate how the Advocate is thus powerless to do anything about real human rights problems and about real lives in peril, and how the Advocates then chooses poor substitutes, such as crime fighting in Western democracies, in order to perpetuate the delusion that their activism is actually doing good in the world, when it only ends up obstructing crime fighting and advocating criminal rights.

The Thinker would further illustrate how the Advocate would not challenge a closed society anyway for three reasons- because the Advocate, generally leftist, holds the same Marxist ideologies that create such tyrannical regimes; how, being a leftist, the Advocate is also a tyrant by nature, so why challenge another tyrant; and last, why challenge a real tyrant when you can feel big kicking around a Western democracy trying to fight crime?

We’ve considered the closed society, and can see how easily real mass murder is conducted in such a society; let’s turn our attention to an open society, and consider in detail just how a mass-murder would take place there:

So we are now in Italy, an open society. There are tourists everywhere, foreign journalists, political opponents to every political action. Who is going to volunteer to do the mass murdering while the rest of the government, the population, political parties, indeed, the rest of the world, looks on? Will it be the zealous law enforcement individuals whose idea it was to take the fingerprints? Maybe the Army, with good old-fashion bayonets. Or the Navy, with marines and a cool shore bombardment. Or how about the Airforce with nice smart bomb raid, all while the TV cameras are rolling. Maybe the local soccer team or glee club will volunteer. Maybe the Prime Minister and his Cabinet will all get together with baseball bats and agree on something for a change, and maybe they’ll broadcast it exclusively on Deutsch TV just for sentimental reasons, and maybe do it in the soccer stadium so they can sell tickets to visiting dignitaries, and have a play-by-play announcer with a color commentator sidekick to appeal to the mass audience and sell high-revenue commercial spots.


You see how ridiculous such notions are when we sit down and actually think about the possibility of mass-murder in an open society? Oh yes, make sure you catch it right after Wide World of Sports, and on the nightly news. Maybe someone will make a game show out of it...

Again, how easy is it for mass murder take place in a closed society? Very easy, it is still continuing. Murder all your opponents, gain control of the military and police force, expel all journalists and foreigners, jail or murder all remaining opponents, take complete control of the media, close the borders, then kill, kill, kill.
The Taliban used their soccer stadiums. Was the Advocate doing anything about that real problem? No. So what substitute fanciful problems did they create in its place so they can feel that they're doing something good in the world? The possibility of mass murder by the current Italian government.

So, again, when do we become concerned for the safety of gypsies in Italy? When the Italian government is taken over by a murdering dictator and closes the society.

So what is all this boo-hooing about over fingerprinting gypsies in Italy? As I illustrated above, it is the political left, intent on doing good, thwarted by doing actual good by their own murderous closed societies; a left who, in looking for substitute windmills to joust with, find imaginary faults with Western authorities, only to end up obstructing crime fighting and advocating criminal rights by adhering to blind idealism.


Advocates: So why are we the Advocates and you the Thinker?

Thinker: Because you don't think.