How do we know anythign is what it is yes this world may be like the matrix or it may not exist we may be just a dream in someones head that is in acoma for the rest of his life thay may not even exist U could be dreaming and when U sleep U R awake U dont know there is no real certainty in life which is what scares so many ppl but how do we know those ppl exist how do they know they exist how do we know we exist how do we know there is one life to live how do we know if there is a god or we become reincarnated or there were never dragons or like-wise how do we know the person that protested the matrix theory really isnt an agent? we dont no how do we not no that we arent just a long ass T.V. show about one persons life in an isolated environment just putting on a play for aliens? we dont do we no I didnt think so so think with an open mind or at least try to because U cant even be sure U are here to have a mind that U in fact might not have. think before U talk and dont denounce others with stupid frivolous ideals that have no bearing on anything at all like ppl not wearing pvc and shit come on think dont be a dick
~ootter~ age 16
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How Would We Know?27% Voted for by MySilentInsanity, TeChNoWC, pnktrky.
How do we know? We don't. If you watch the movie, if that's where you are getting it from, they have no idea of whether or not they ARE in reality. But then again, if we were in a matrix, and are pulled from it, how would you be able to believe any world exists? Pulled from one your mind thought you had been living in for twenty years and placed into another where you were bred, where you were attached to a machine(s). Would you be able to believe that your world that you have known for years was a program? We would never know if the world we lived in was or wasn't the "real" world. For all you know, you could be pulled from the second world into another.
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Ideas, science, Russel and the scepticists...18% Voted for by ennoia, looking4realtruth.
You know when you're in the Matrix - everyone speaks in pseudo-metaphysical broken sentences, no events follow logically, everyone wears tight black PVC and the whole damn place is green.
But seriously, this debate is not at all new, even if the Wachowski brothers added lots of sunglasses and greenness: How do we know the waking from the dream? The only answer is; we don't until we wake.
This is what Plato, Descartes and countless others have said - we cannot perceive ultimate reality until we are outside reality. The empirical proof to this theory lies with quantum and atomic physics - what we perceive to be reality is in fact nothing like the ultimate reality we know to exist: e.g. we see a shiny silver metal box - but we know the metal box has nothing shiny or silver about it, ultimately - up close it is a storm of sub-atomic particles, and we only perceive it to be shiny and silver because of some other quality in the material that makes the IDEA of shiny and silver apparent to us.
Similarly, science tells us that electrons exist in many places at once, but are never really in any of them - I have trouble searching for the language to describe that concept, let alone trying to find anything in my immediate reality alike that electron.
So doesn't this appear to mean that we know a reality to exist beyond what appears to be reality - atomic reality - that can have no concept of, it’s almost outside of us, outside of our experience?
Let's take a different approach. Descartes and gang before claimed that the senses are part of the mental world which is only an *idea* of reality, not reality itself, which seems to correspond with our concept of apparent reality (shiny metal box) and atomic reality (non-sensical particles with no colour, shape or comprehensible position in space-time.)
Betrand Russel (And please correct me if my details are a bit wobbly) had a different idea. He said, in layman's terms;
"Look dudes, it makes no sense to talk about this "external reality". It's like saying "what's outside the universe?" (as if what's outside the universe isn't Part of the universe - but doesn't the concept universe then break down?) - it's a nonsensical question. What reality is, what everything really is, is what WE perceive it to be. I know about everything around me because I am receiving SENSE DATA about it. The shiny metal box doesn’t need dimensions or matter for it to exist for me. It’s just a bundle of sense data. I only know about the universe through this sense data, and there is no other way I can possibly know about REALNESS. So we apply Ockam’s Razor to this theory (when faced with two theories, the simplest explanation is the best.) and we are left with supposing THERE IS NO EXTRENAL WORLD. Boom.”
There’s lots of opposition to this theory, and I haven’t prescribed it to you at its most convincing. But, although science may suggest there is a world “outside” our immediate reality, the classic Matrix idea, we have to be careful when exploring the idea of something outside the reality we think to be true, because we run into lots of logical knots.
The other way to deal with it, is the way of the Scepticist – we don’t know, we can’t know, we can’t ever know, so shut up. (Remember Scepticists never get invited to parties and spend all their lives denying their own existence before spontaneously combusting.)
Just a thought.
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LifeVoted for by Beena.
I think it matters less whether life on earth is real or an illusion. What matters most is the fact how we perceive it and we all perceive it as real. For instance, if someone told you it is an illusion only, then would you live it any differently than real life? I don't think so!
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ummmmmVoted for by Bob the Elder.
yes, we don't KNOW that any of this is real. however, to the best of our perception it appears very real indeed. it is our minds that think, also that observe. it doesn't make any differance if we're all a dream. from our point of view, it's exactly the same as 'reality'. no point thinking about it really.
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Life and living.Voted for by failedprocess.
THe truth is...we don't and we can't. Say for example that the matrix is just one neverending, continuous "life": we would be born, live and die and be none the wiser. On the other hand, if the matrix were like the "A to B repeat" function on a DVD player, a certain portion of your life would repeat continously and we'd still be none the wiser. The point is, is that we don't know if this world is the matrix and we never can know. And even if we were to somehow learn that we were living in the matrix, would we still be living in the matrix? Sure your metaphysical body would still walk around, eat the food, go to work, but in you mind, you would know that it wasn't all real. "Life" just wouldn't be worth living knowing you were living a lie.
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July 11, 2005
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Don't be afraid !! Plato and Buddha survived ;-) and so will you.
The idea of the 'Matrix' is approximately 3500 years old and it's called 'The cave example' created by Plato. And by the way the word idea is ancient greek and means picture or mirror. Plato used this word to describe his thesis. Certainly he didn't use the word machines and programs but you can transfer his way of explaination into the future. But Plato wasn't the only one. The famous Buddha also said that we are living in an illusion. The whole "Matrix 1" is dedicated to his way of thinking. As I watched the movie I was quiet surprised because almost 99% is Buddhism apart from the gun fights.July 11, 2005
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Don't be afraid !! Plato and Buddha survived ;-) and so will you.
The idea of the 'Matrix' is approximately 3500 years old and it's called 'The cave example' created by Plato. And by the way the word idea is ancient greek and means picture or mirror. Plato used this word to describe his thesis. Certainly he didn't use the word machines and programs but you can transfer his way of explaination into the future. But Plato wasn't the only one. The famous Buddha also said that we are living in an illusion. The whole "Matrix 1" is dedicated to his way of thinking. As I watched the movie I was quiet surprised because almost 99% is Buddhism apart from the gun fights.July 11, 2005
Edit | Reply
Don't be afraid !! Plato and Buddha survived ;-) and so will you.
The idea of the 'Matrix' is approximately 3500 years old and it's called 'The cave example' created by Plato. And by the way the word idea is ancient greek and means picture or mirror. Plato used this word to describe his thesis. Certainly he didn't use the word machines and programs but you can transfer his way of explaination into the future. But Plato wasn't the only one. The famous Buddha also said that we are living in an illusion. The whole "Matrix 1" is dedicated to his way of thinking. As I watched the movie I was quiet surprised because almost 99% is Buddhism apart from the gun fights.July 11, 2005
Edit | Reply
Don't be afraid !! Plato and Buddha survived ;-) and so will you.
The idea of the 'Matrix' is approximately 3500 years old and it's called 'The cave example' created by Plato. And by the way the word idea is ancient greek and means picture or mirror. Plato used this word to describe his thesis. Certainly he didn't use the word machines and programs but you can transfer his way of explaination into the future. But Plato wasn't the only one. The famous Buddha also said that we are living in an illusion. The whole "Matrix 1" is dedicated to his way of thinking. As I watched the movie I was quiet surprised because almost 99% is Buddhism apart from the gun fights.July 11, 2005
Edit | Reply
Don't be afraid !! Plato and Buddha survived ;-) and so will you.
The idea of the 'Matrix' is approximately 3500 years old and it's called 'The cave example' created by Plato. And by the way the word idea is ancient greek and means picture or mirror. Plato used this word to describe his thesis. Certainly he didn't use the word machines and programs but you can transfer his way of explaination into the future. But Plato wasn't the only one. The famous Buddha also said that we are living in an illusion. The whole "Matrix 1" is dedicated to his way of thinking. As I watched the movie I was quiet surprised because almost 99% is Buddhism apart from the gun fights.July 11, 2005
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Something went wrong with my computerDecember 19, 2005
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pnktrky
February 25
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Molzahn
February 28
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I think... therefore I think. --- nothing else
But, the mind does not exist as a singular unit. I can trick the mind, I can put conflict in the mind, I can just as easily turn around and make you see that the wall IS only air. So what is reality then? the averages of our thoughts? why then can we be mistaken in judgement if our logic points in one direction?You know what, descartes recognized thought as being intrinsic to self because the act of thinking verifies thought. Thought thinks that only thought exists. But this does not mean that is the extent of existance... We would not be able to think of a point in time where we are not thinking because our own thoughts would overlay that memory.
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